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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 19:10:52 GMT
EDIT:
Let me spell this out very clearly to you. This is an anti fascist board. As a member of a group that posts on Neo-nazi forums, you don't qualify for that status. You're allowed to defend the DoF. That doesn't mean you're in any way welcome here. And I will delete any posts you make in discussions between anti-racists.
Boojum
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Post by Andy N on Nov 13, 2007 19:21:32 GMT
Boojum wrote "I think that any reasonable person would consider that attempting to silence open discussion of fascist affiliations of Pagan groups gives them succor."
I think this is a misrepresentation of the situation. You have implied an intent that I don't believe existed. The PN statement says "The locking of the thread and the banning of members is a direct result of the breaking of Pagan Network's rules regarding personal attack." I have no reason to doubt this and have seen no evidence that would suggest this statement is not true.
And since I've started quoting the PN statement it also says "Pagan Network would like to assure its members and others that it in no way supports any neo-nazi group or any other controversial group which has been discussed here recently." That seems clear enough to me. In light of this statement I don't see how what PN have done can be regarded as giving succour to any other group when they clearly don't approve of such organisations.
PN forums have a set of guidelines about what is permitted and PN have presumably decided they have to have them - like many other forums - to try and avoid threads degenerating into nastiness. This is not about preventing civilised discussion of difficult subjects, but rather it seems to me to be about trying to keep such discussions to issues without degenerating into personal attacks.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 19:34:08 GMT
Andy N:Just out of curiosity, do you think there are ANY groups which should be allowed to be named and their actions questioned? The 'rules' were applied in this case to a group that advertised on a Neo-Nazi forum. Do you feel ( and you have every right to) that such should be protected by the rules of a forum, any forum? Serious question.
And if people feel strongly enough to find Neo-Nazism repugnant, do you feel they should be banned for saying so? The thread that was removed named no personal names. So the 'rule' that was broken must perforce be that of naming 'group' names, hence my question.
In terms of 'nastiness' , have you read the forum today? No, it's nowt to do with this subject, but it's one of the nastiest things I have EVER read on any pagan forum and yet...it stands. This is not a dig at the mods. choice to let it stand, but it brings into question rules about 'nastiness', yes?
Illgrace
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Post by Andy N on Nov 13, 2007 19:55:04 GMT
Why should anyone think I have any problem with the naming - and hopefully shaming - of any groups or organisations that deserve it? I haven't said anywhere that I object to any group being named.
I personally wouldn't want to see any fascist/neo-nazi group promoted in any way.
Is that clear enough?
I can't read the thread on the PN forums because it isn't available. However as I've said I've no reason to doubt that the PN statement correctly explains why they pulled the plug on a thread which had got out of control.
Which forum and which nastiness? I haven't a clue what Illgrace means by this. I regularly visit half a dozen Pagan forums and occasionally visit various others. A clue would help!
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Post by Boojum on Nov 13, 2007 20:02:14 GMT
I think this is a misrepresentation of the situation. You have implied an intent that I don't believe existed. The PN statement says "The locking of the thread and the banning of members is a direct result of the breaking of Pagan Network's rules regarding personal attack." I have no reason to doubt this and have seen no evidence that would suggest this statement is not true. Genuine question. Have you seen the deleted thread in question? Because I honestly don't think there were a lot of personal attacks going on. Members of the DoF were being accused of being Nazis. But I don't consider calling someone who posts on a Nazi board of being a fascist to be a personal attack. Anymore then I think it's unreasonable to describe someone who posts on a Green Party board of being an ecologist. But it also says: The Committee issued an announcement on 30 Sept 2007 saying that a certain group would not be discussed on Pagan Network, however the thread in question deteriorated into discussion about this group, thereby breaking Pagan Network rules and therefore being lockedThat's why I'm accusing them of giving succor to the Daughters of Frya on this issue- they are clearly stating that the fascist affiliations of the DoF cannot be discussed, personal attacks or not. They don't even mention which group they're talking about in the statement. The thread has been deleted as opposed to just locked. So any PN users who didn't see the original thread will have no idea that the DoF are the group being talked about, or the overwhelming evidence against them. And that's why I think it's fair to say PN are trying to sweep this issue under the carpet. See above. It isn't just a matter of personal attacks. It's any discussion of the DoF at all. No matter how civilised. So PN are deliberately keeping the fact that a group within Paganism has links to the far right from their forum members. I consider that highly irresponsible. And if we're going to talk about personal attacks, does the open calling for the banning of other members in that thread not qualify? For that matter, as I mentioned up thread, my banning did not follow the stated PN procedure. I got no warning PMs at all. So, if people are going to be banned for breaking the rules, should that apply to whoever banned me as well?
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Post by paulmitchell on Nov 13, 2007 20:19:43 GMT
Hiya Andy, good to hear you on this board. Thanks for your input, I've reflected on it from my point of view, as is my habit.
This thread is an inevitable consequence of the actions of the mods in PN banning members over the particular thread. Now, it may be a good reaction, or a bad reaction, but it is, I suggest, what happens when things get heated on the internet. Given the subject at hand, and the personal investment people have in it, to expect people to choose not to blow of steam would be a little naive.
As to the "bitch craft", well again, what do people expect? I am sure that those running the Pagan Network are engaging in similar exchanges themselves if the information i have been offered is in any way accurate. And if the information is inaccurate, well I haven't seen anything to persuade me of that...
And if this is "bitch craft", well perhaps console your self that it is at least motivated by something that matters, rather than about the fact that some one said something about someone else that was a bit annoying....
I'm not sure who has an axe to grind with whom. I find it difficult to keep up with these things. However, the subject matter of this board is more important than individual differences, and I hope that as time goes by it will prove to be a useful resource for many, regardless of their axes.
I think the PN thing will blow over if left alone long enough. The accusation that the moderators acted in a particular way, taking the application of a "rule" as a motivator for action over the identification of a pagan organisation's attempts to recruit young women through a neo-nazi website , is one that will stand against the test of time. It did happen, it is well evidenced, and there were alternative ways of dealing with the issues involved to that which was taken. That will be the basis of discussion for a short while. That particular individuals are aggrieved by the actions of the mods should not be dismissed, as this is a very emotive issue, perhaps more emotive than the need to "hold the line" over a rule break and a series of challenges to the decision making processes of some mod's.
Should we focus our energies elsewhere? Well yes we should. You speak of other pagan organisations more worthy of attention, perhaps you could use this forum to let us know about them?
Is the Pagan Network a pro-facist organisation? I don't think so. Has it acted in a way that enables others to make a stand (no matter how small) against the use the far right are making of modern paganism? No, indeed in refusing to allow such groups to be identified, where there is good evidence for such identification, I suggest it has done just the opposite. It may not have been the intention, but that does not change the outcome.
I would hope the moderators of the Pagan Network have taken the time to reflect. Perhaps if they were to simply pretend that they have done something wrong, and then explore the reasons why, they might understand the motivations behind people's input and reactions. It might help them to understand why the banning of members and the deleting of a thread has been (initially) reacted to in such a way. They don't need to change their minds, offer apologies, or the like as far as I'm concerned, just do the pagan thing and understand a little. It'll all blow over for them, they let people know they have "...survived worse than this.." on a regular basis. A bit of learning, on both sides, is what will come from this, and that will be a good thing.
All that said (typed?), I hope you can continue to offer us some words as I have often found your views insightful.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 13, 2007 20:55:23 GMT
Just to add to Paul's (excellent) post, a couple of points in my 'offical' capacity.
Actually, I'm hoping this blows over with time. I'm not going to back down on a point of principle. But I sorta agree with Andy that I have better targets I could be concentrating my fire on. I'm certainly not going to censor discussion. I think this is better out in the open then discussed in super sekrit forums and in the pub. (Which is one thing that differentiates it from traditional bitchcraft for me). But I think this is probably a stage we need to go through as a forum before moving on. One of the reasons for this thread is to try and keep the PN issue from being dragged into other threads, which I think would happen if we didn't have the opportunity here.
Just to make this very clear, there isn't a party line on PN that you have to follow to be welcome on the forum. All that you need is to be genuinely anti racist and anti fascist. (And not homophobic etc). If people think that PN are in the right here, that in no way precludes them from being an active member of this forum. In the end, the aim is far bigger then that single issue. And people are very free to post on both forums. At least from my perspective. I can't speak for PN, obviously.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 21:27:31 GMT
Well put.
Illgrace
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 21:37:58 GMT
Why should anyone think I have any problem with the naming - and hopefully shaming - of any groups or organisations that deserve it? I haven't said anywhere that I object to any group being named. I personally wouldn't want to see any fascist/neo-nazi group promoted in any way. Is that clear enough? I can't read the thread on the PN forums because it isn't available. However as I've said I've no reason to doubt that the PN statement correctly explains why they pulled the plug on a thread which had got out of control. Which forum and which nastiness? I haven't a clue what Illgrace means by this. I regularly visit half a dozen Pagan forums and occasionally visit various others. A clue would help! Andy ;D Nobody who has ever read your posts would think for a city-second you would support hate groups. I was merely inquiring about 'rule's and how they should be applied. I'll send you the bit I was referring to. Or not. I can't p.m. you unless you are a member here. But nasty to the max. But this is NOT down to the majority of posters , it was again, a question of how 'rules' are applied. Nowt personal. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 23:58:59 GMT
EDIT: Let me spell this out very clearly to you. This is an anti fascist board. As a member of a group that posts on Neo-nazi forums, you don't qualify for that status. You're allowed to defend the DoF. That doesn't mean you're in any way welcome here. And I will delete any posts you make in discussions between anti-racists. Boojum Fair enough, it's your board. Censorship, however, is always self-defeating. And it's not as if what I said was in any way controversial (I was merely disagreeing with your description of Neville Chamberlain as a pro-fascist). Still, I can understand why you would not want to tolerate dissenting viewpoints, because you *know* you're right. Dialogue never got us anywhere, right?
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 3:45:24 GMT
EDIT: Let me spell this out very clearly to you. This is an anti fascist board. As a member of a group that posts on Neo-nazi forums, you don't qualify for that status. You're allowed to defend the DoF. That doesn't mean you're in any way welcome here. And I will delete any posts you make in discussions between anti-racists. Boojum Fair enough, it's your board. Censorship, however, is always self-defeating. And it's not as if what I said was in any way controversial (I was merely disagreeing with your description of Neville Chamberlain as a pro-fascist). Still, I can understand why you would not want to tolerate dissenting viewpoints, because you *know* you're right. Dialogue never got us anywhere, right? Seeing the amount you have 'contributed' to this forum, crying about 'censorship' and claiming a lack of 'dialogue' are such empty claims as to be laughable. As for the 'dialogue' part, you have consistently refused to answer any questions regarding your groups participation on a hate-group. You have 'talked at', not 'talked to' - this is not discussion, this is you using this site as a platform for some kind of apologetics for hate groups then putting your hands over your ears and screaming La-La-La really loud so you do not hear the questions that make you uncomfortable and by so doing, avoid answering. At least other posters who may have disagreed with aspects of some of the posts were open to discuss them, unlike yourself. So please, I rather think those crocodile tears are wasted. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 8:37:43 GMT
Seeing the amount you have 'contributed' to this forum, crying about 'censorship' and claiming a lack of 'dialogue' are such empty claims as to be laughable. As for the 'dialogue' part, you have consistently refused to answer any questions regarding your groups participation on a hate-group. You have 'talked at', not 'talked to' - this is not discussion, this is you using this site as a platform for some kind of apologetics for hate groups then putting your hands over your ears and screaming La-La-La really loud so you do not hear the questions that make you uncomfortable and by so doing, avoid answering. At least other posters who may have disagreed with aspects of some of the posts were open to discuss them, unlike yourself. So please, I rather think those crocodile tears are wasted. Illgrace I have answered your question many times, and will attempt to do so yet again. Just because someone posts on a board, does not imply they are in agreement with the policies of that board. How can I spell it out for you to make it even clearer than that? But on the question of censorship, let's see what you did when PN banned you for flagrantly breaking their rules. In your blog you wrote: "PLEASE BE AWARE THAT 'PAGAN NETWORK' HAS NOW BEEN LISTED AMONG THE 'FRIENDLIES' TO WHITE SUPREMACIST AND NAZI GROUPS.THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED.PLEASE ALSO BE AWARE THAT YOUR IP AT PAGAN NETWORK IS NOW AVAILABLE TO THOSE HATE GROUPS THAT VIEW THIS SITE AS 'FRIENDLY' EVERYTIME YOU SIGN ON." Here you are accusing PN of passing people's IP addresses on to hate groups. Mere facts should not get in the way of a good scapegoat, right? I'm surprised they don't sue you.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 9:08:18 GMT
No, you have answered none of my questions. Just as an example, you haven't answered my last question to you regarding the so-called 'DoF' in the DoF folder. Why not? I and other's are still waiting.
The message you put on simply states the facts. PN has been listed as a 'friendly' and any site that anyone logs onto has access to that person's IP. PN's 'site counter' is right on their frontis piece and provides this information to anyone looking. Other groups have the same thing. Find and quote the passage where I accuse PN of 'passing people's IP addresses' to hate groups'.
You made the claim, YOU provide the proof. Go ahead - find it and quote it.
Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 9:16:28 GMT
No, you have answered none of my questions. Just as an example, you haven't answered my last question to you regarding the so-called 'DoF' in the DoF folder. Why not? I and other's are still waiting. The message you put on simply states the facts. PN has been listed as a 'friendly' and any site that anyone logs onto has access to that person's IP. PN's 'site counter' is right on their frontis piece and provides this information to anyone looking. Other groups have the same thing. Find and quote the passage where I accuse PN of ' passing people's IP addresses' to hate groups'.
You made the claim, YOU provide the proof. Go ahead - find it and quote it. Illgrace I already have, but here it is again: "PLEASE BE AWARE THAT 'PAGAN NETWORK' HAS NOW BEEN LISTED AMONG THE 'FRIENDLIES' TO WHITE SUPREMACIST AND NAZI GROUPS.THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED.PLEASE ALSO BE AWARE THAT YOUR IP AT PAGAN NETWORK IS NOW AVAILABLE TO THOSE HATE GROUPS THAT VIEW THIS SITE AS 'FRIENDLY' EVERYTIME YOU SIGN ON." A person's IP address is not available to third parties, unless given out. So you are accusing them of giving it out.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 9:25:11 GMT
Do you have a reading problem? What part of " Please be aware that your IP at Pagan Network is now available to those hate groups" don't you get? Hell, it's right there in the open! It's open to ANYBODY! ALL sites log IP numbers, didn't you know that?. PN chooses to make their members IP's public.
But you dodged the main question. You accused me of writing that PN was supplying peoples IP's to hate groups. That is a statement of 'active and wrong doing with malice aforethought'. Prove it! That is a heinous accusation which you if you can't back up, means YOU are walking the libel line. So go ahead: back up your accusation.
Illgrace
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