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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 9:29:47 GMT
Do you have a reading problem? What part of " Please be aware that your IP at Pagan Network is now available to those hate groups" don't you get? Hell, it's right there in the open! ALL sites log IP numbers, didn't you know that?. Well, not everybody knows much about computers, it's true. But you dodged the main question. You accused me of writing that PN was supplying peoples IP's to hate groups. That is a statement of 'active and wrong doing with malice aforethought'. Proof it! That is a heinous accusation which you if you can't back up, means YOU are walking the libel line. So go ahead: back up your accusation. Illgrace IP addresses of posters on PN are known only to PN. You are accusing them of giving those IP addresses to hate groups. You have also, by your own admission, listed them as friendly to hate groups. In other words, you have libelled them. "PLEASE BE AWARE THAT 'PAGAN NETWORK' HAS NOW BEEN LISTED AMONG THE 'FRIENDLIES' TO WHITE SUPREMACIST AND NAZI GROUPS.THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED.PLEASE ALSO BE AWARE THAT YOUR IP AT PAGAN NETWORK IS NOW AVAILABLE TO THOSE HATE GROUPS THAT VIEW THIS SITE AS 'FRIENDLY' EVERYTIME YOU SIGN ON."
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 9:40:52 GMT
Wrong . However, it's not up to me to educate you on how to use a computer for extremely simple things.
Now, since it's pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain how to access the IP's (since PN doesn't hide them), I will ask you once again to supply the proof that I accused PN of supplying members IP's to hate groups.
Put up or Shut up, as we say here.
No more dodges, they can be seen for what they are. If you cannot supply said proof, then that is a very serious personal attack.Period.
Illgrace
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Post by Boojum on Nov 14, 2007 10:18:53 GMT
Fair enough, it's your board. Censorship, however, is always self-defeating. And it's not as if what I said was in any way controversial (I was merely disagreeing with your description of Neville Chamberlain as a pro-fascist). Still, I can understand why you would not want to tolerate dissenting viewpoints, because you *know* you're right. Dialogue never got us anywhere, right? There is a subforum for 'dialogue' with supporters of fascist groups. This isn't it. It's hardly my problem that the DoF doesn't have a forum of its own.
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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 11:58:21 GMT
Wrong . However, it's not up to me to educate you on how to use a computer for extremely simple things. Now, since it's pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain how to access the IP's (since PN doesn't hide them), I will ask you once again to supply the proof that I accused PN of supplying members IP's to hate groups. Put up or Shut up, as we say here. No more dodges, they can be seen for what they are. If you cannot supply said proof, then that is a very serious personal attack.Period. Illgrace PN *does* hide the IP addresses of posters, and nor will it give them out to third parties. You asked for proof of your libel, so here it is yet again (yawn). Here, first of all, is the proof, in your own words, that you accused PN of being friendly to hate groups: "PLEASE BE AWARE THAT 'PAGAN NETWORK' HAS NOW BEEN LISTED AMONG THE 'FRIENDLIES' TO WHITE SUPREMACIST AND NAZI GROUPS.THIS HAS BEEN CONFIRMED." And here is the proof, in your own words, that you accused PN of making people's IP addresses available to hate groups: "PLEASE ALSO BE AWARE THAT YOUR IP AT PAGAN NETWORK IS NOW AVAILABLE TO THOSE HATE GROUPS THAT VIEW THIS SITE AS 'FRIENDLY' EVERYTIME YOU SIGN ON."
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 12:23:04 GMT
Wrong. Again, I cannot help those who are computer illiterate at your level. Also, You accused me of writing that PN was giving out members IP's to hate groups. You cannot 'prove' that , because I did not write it. There is no 'libel' in the statement I made and if you had even a rudimentary knowledge of how computer sites work (even the one you are talking about) you would know that. Also, apparently you cannot read very well ( or are VERY selective in what you choose to read -no surprise there). It seems no matter how many times something is explained to you, you don't get it. Well, I'm not responsible for your apparent illiteracy or inability to figure even rudimentary site procedures out .
Your accusations are a different matter. You still have not provided the proof asked for. But then, I should expect libel, lies , dodging the issue and the usual motley assortment of revisionist bullshit from a neo-Nazi. Why am I not surprised? You can re-quote what I wrote to infinity, it doesn't change the meaning of the words written.
Sorry, you f**ked up and now you can't retract. At least you have made known YET AGAIN your inability to either read properly , figure simple things out and displayed once more your ability to dodge any direct question put to you. Yawn , indeed.
You're just getting repetitive and boring now. All you do is repeat back the same misunderstood stuff. Go back to your Nazi Loli Hentai and while away those empty hours until the next 'training' session for the never to be seen new recruits that doesn't turn up at your imaginary training grounds. Because, thankfully due to the people that 'outed' your group, everyone knows it's as bogus and fraudulent as it's founder. I even saw a joke about it on, of all places, an 'Aryan pride' forum. *snerk* Gee, even THEY don't want your group! How sad is that?!
Illgrace - can't be bothered talking to the fascist/racist predator anymore. If I wanted to hear endless repeats, I'd buy a parrot. At least many of them can learn.
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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 12:54:35 GMT
Wrong. Again, I cannot help those who are computer illiterate at your level. Also, You accused me of writing that PN was giving out members IP's to hate groups. You cannot 'prove' that , because I did not write it. There is no 'libel' in the statement I made and if you had even a rudimentary knowledge of how computer sites work (even the one you are talking about) you would know that. Also, apparently you cannot read very well ( or are VERY selective in what you choose to read -no surprise there). It seems no matter how many times something is explained to you, you don't get it. Well, I'm not responsible for your apparent illiteracy or inability to figure even rudimentary site procedures out . Your accusations are a different matter. You still have not provided the proof asked for. But then, I should expect libel, lies , dodging the issue and the usual motley assortment of revisionist bullshit from a neo-Nazi. Why am I not surprised? You can re-quote what I wrote to infinity, it doesn't change the meaning of the words written. Sorry, you f**ked up and now you can't retract. At least you have made known YET AGAIN your inability to either read properly , figure simple things out and displayed once more your ability to dodge any direct question put to you. Yawn , indeed. You're just getting repetitive and boring now. All you do is repeat back the same misunderstood stuff. Go back to your Nazi Loli Hentai and while away those empty hours until the next 'training' session for the never to be seen new recruits that doesn't turn up at your imaginary training grounds. Because, thankfully due to the people that 'outed' your group, everyone knows it's as bogus and fraudulent as it's founder. I even saw a joke about it on, of all places, an 'Aryan pride' forum. *snerk* Gee, even THEY don't want your group! How sad is that?! Illgrace - can't be bothered talking to the fascist/racist predator anymore. If I wanted to hear endless repeats, I'd buy a parrot. At least many of them can learn. May I have the address of the 'Aryan pride' forum on which you saw a joke about the DoF? Assuming the forum exists, of course, and is not another made-up 'fact' like the ones you use so often in your hate filled, lying diatribes. If it's real, the DoF may have to go there and correct some inaccurate information (which is why they went to the other Aryan one, by the way). I'll take a non-reply as proof that you just made it up.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 14, 2007 13:41:30 GMT
It's the same forum.
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Post by debbifer on Nov 14, 2007 14:56:16 GMT
Oh, OK, thanks. I already know about the criticism the DoF has encountered there. Perhaps Illgrace was being deliberately misleading, as per her usual debating tactics. The DoF have a tendency to pile into any forum that happens to mention them and argue their corner, whatever the nature of that forum.
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Post by Blackbyrd on Nov 14, 2007 16:37:34 GMT
Hi everybody. PN forums have a set of guidelines about what is permitted and PN have presumably decided they have to have them - like many other forums - to try and avoid threads degenerating into nastiness. This is not about preventing civilised discussion of difficult subjects, but rather it seems to me to be about trying to keep such discussions to issues without degenerating into personal attacks. True, and Illgrace knew she was already on thin ice when she posted on that topic. I wish people had refused to reply to Wemod - the important bit was to get the original information out into the open, and "debating" with Wemod was a trap. But I think Illgrace did a public service by exposing the DoF post on the P-A forum; and I think PN have got their reponse to this wrong. And I didn't see any sign that the other people who seem to have been banned were actually getting personal, as opposed to stating information which was in the public domain. Meanwhile, hiding the thread (as opposed to locking it at a much earlier stage, which I would have supported) means that the important information in the first few posts has gone. As Paul says, it'll probably all blow over. Myself, I'm wondering whether it's worth pursuing this with PN, and if so, how to, as I'm not currently paid up so can't put it on the members' forums, which is where it belongs. The question of PN's role does concern me. I'm wondering if there is actually a strategy to get PN back to the point where it can claim a real representative function; otherwise, what's the point of it? But if I want answers to that one, I think the least I have to do is to sign up again as a member.
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Post by paulmitchell on Nov 14, 2007 17:11:25 GMT
Is it worth persuing this with PN? I don't think so, other than perhaps explaining where the reaction to the actions has come from. I don't expect they are up for a disscusion on this, so I wouldn't create the heart ache of trying to get one. They have stated that they don't support facist groups, which is good news but does miss the point.
I am really surprised to hear that PN are considered by anyone as a source of representation of anyone, and if it is the case it just goes to show how easy it is to become "a representative"! Perhaps we should all keep this in mind when presented with other "representatives" from various areas of life.
If the Pagan Network membership aren't questioning what's happened then either they don't really care, they think the mods are right, or they don't think persuading PN to question itself would make any difference in the great scheme of things. If the organisation behind the Pagan Network have not questioned their own judgment in this (let's face it, it is a contentious issue and that suggests some self reflection is available and appropriate) then it suggests they are not up for learning.
But if you have access to the PN boards there may be benefit in popping in from time to time and utilising them, if only to let others know what's going on!
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Post by Blackbyrd on Nov 14, 2007 19:27:29 GMT
I am really surprised to hear that PN are considered by anyone as a source of representation of anyone, and if it is the case it just goes to show how easy it is to become "a representative"! Perhaps we should all keep this in mind when presented with other "representatives" from various areas of life. Well, PN did once have this ambition; and are represented on PEBBLE on the basis that they had a large and lively online membership including many young people; were running several moots across the country; and unlike most sites, had a democratic structure. Since then, of course, things have fallen apart several times.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 14, 2007 19:48:57 GMT
[moderator]Debbifer, what part of "The Opposition forum is the place for you to defend the DoF" aren't you getting? I don't care if you think they're a racist group or not. For the purposes of this board, any group that posts a recruitment thread on a Neonazi site qualifies as such. You can argue the toss in there. You can even have "The DoF are not a racist group!" as your sig if you so choose. But if you carry on pissing about and dragging threads off topic I will have no qualms at all about banning you. Consider this your last warning.[/moderator]
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Post by Boojum on Nov 14, 2007 19:50:16 GMT
I wish people had refused to reply to Wemod - the important bit was to get the original information out into the open, and "debating" with Wemod was a trap. I did refuse to reply to Wemod directly and was still banned...
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Post by Alistair on Nov 14, 2007 20:53:47 GMT
Hiya kiddies!
Just popping in to add my thoughts. I'll try to keep it brief:
The Pagan Network committee handled this astonishingly badly.
By that I mean both the DoF situation, and banning people who spoke out against them.
I want PN to be a well-run organisation that has loads to offer to pagans in the UK, both online and offline. There *needs* to be something like this.
I was seriously considering offering to help out properly and get involved with running the place, but the way the 'Druid War' and 'Hellabaloo' were handled and now this have destroyed my confidence in PN so much that I don't know if it's worth it.
As it stands, the Pagan Network is just a message board with dwindling appeal to the UK pagan community. So much trust has been lost, and I've seen so many good people leave it. It's a genuine shame.
I want my confidence in PN restored and whilst I have been seen (along with present company, I believe...) as a constant critic, this has never been personal and is based on a desire for PN to be what it promises to be.
I can't see any point paying for full membership - aside from the fact that this will give me more of a voice? Is this worth it? I'm a hair's breadth from Paul's stance on this, but still hold a glimmer of hope.
Is it worth holding onto? Should I pitch in? Opinions welcome.
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Post by Andy N on Nov 14, 2007 21:06:46 GMT
The fascinating thing about all this is the irony. I'm talking about the issue of free speech. It seems that people are permitted to say what they like so long as some other people like it too...
I am still astonished that a forum concerned about justice can be a place where unjustified and unjustifiable allegations are being made about PN. They say they don't support or approve of neo-nazi/fascist groups. To me this is a very clear statement and means that they cannot legitimately be called pro-fascist.
The argument that they did not allow a thread to continue, after it had become nasty and had also been judged to have broken the forum's rules, makes them pro-fascist is quite illogical. You might just as well claim that the RAC or HSBC Bank are pro-fascist because they don't foster the discussion of neo-nazi groups.
Really if the people on this site do care about justice - and I assume that's why they are here - then surely it can't be sensible or consistent to make allegations based on unsustainable leaps of logic beyond what the evidence supports.
I still don't know which forum it was that Illgrace was talking about.
With regard to the IP issue if you click on the bit bottom right of a message on PN forum you will get a pop-up window saying that IPs are not viewable by other members - you can see your own but no one other than the mods can.
PN is not supplying any IPs to anyone.
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