Pagan Network Policy on Fascist Groups

[Boojum]

Let's keep this one as calm and unemotional as possible.

I assume I'm not the only one that's just been based for naming Nazis. (Be interested to know if Wemod has been, mind). Rather strangely, the reason given was that I carried on the DoF argument. Despite the fact I stopped talking directly about the DoF as early as page 3. But hey. Frankly what the anti fascist community thinks of me is more important to me then what the Pagan community think. You know, most people prefer to have me on the inside of their tent pissing out, then on the outside pissing in...

I would rather we trying to keep any emotive issues surrounding being banned out of this though. Let's talk rationally about whether PN (as an organisation, as opposed to individuals within it) can actually legitimately be seen as facilitating fascist groups attempt to infiltrate Paganism by banning any attempts to discuss their behaviour openly. And, if so, what, if anything we should do about it.

On the first question, I think the answer is undoubtably yes. I'm not in any way suggesting that the PN committee are racist. But I think that it's undeniable that their current policy of trying to sweep far right affiliations under the rug is objectively pro-fascist. As far as I'm concerned, you're either anti-fascist or pro-fascist. This isn't a subject where I believe there are shades of grey. I'm open to counterarguments, as always.

On the second, this is obviously more contentious. At this point, I'm merely going to throw some instant ideas in off the top of my head. I would suggest nobody does anything until we can discuss this a bit more.

1. PN Agm- There is possibly a legitimate argument for leafleting an AGM to put our side of the story. I don't think we have anything to fear from open debate. This is largely academic at the moment though, as there isn't one for ages.

2. Getting the word out. This is an obvious one. Talk to other people in the Pagan community about the situation, whether face to face or online. The first is pretty much fine. Nobody can tell me what I say to my damn friends. The second is worth treading a bit more carefully with I think. Understandably, many forums etc. would rather we kept drama from PN off them. That's worth respecting. However, if anyone has a membership for alt.pagan.snark or the Non-fluffies, this might be more their kind of thing.

3. PN's sponsors. This is the most controversial of the ideas. But PN does have a list of affiliated businesses who a (POLITE) email could be sent to.

I think these are all legitimate. Firstly, PN does claim its aim is networking first and foremost. As such, if they're choosing to side with fascist pagans against anti fascist ones, that is arguably fair to tell people. Secondly, PN are very clear they're a business. Fine. But if a business like Nestle offends my sensibilities, I call for a boycott. I'm not sure you can have that one both ways. Either you're a service for the Pagan community or you're essentially a money making enterprise. If you're the latter, then it's standard practise for economic pressure to be applied to change policy. Misguided appeals to Pagan 'unity' don't change that. To end, I'm going to cite from Wayland Skallagrimsson's article once again.

Hold no troth with the first sort of Folkist. Do not allow them onto our lists. Do not allow a single ignorant statement go unchallenged. You moderators, do not shut down threads where these conversations arise. Do not allow the errors of thought of the second sort of Folkist to pass unchallenged. Do not give them the veneer of respectability that silence on their weaknesses grants. Do not hold their ideas to be as valid or serious as those of other heathens. Do not allow their racism to infect our troth just because it is a hidden, seemingly irrelevant form of racism. Do not treat them as "just another way of looking at things, as valid as any other".

To those who would, no matter what, try to keep silent from fear or from a desire to be left in peace, I say "shame on you." You are not taking responsibility for your actions, for your decisions. You make us weak, now, when we most need to be strong. You are not my kinfolk.

Thoughts?

[illgrace]

It has always been made clear in letters to myself that PN were a business, first and foremost. Posters that stood in the way of that ( or were perceived to) were disposable with no notice.

The sad thing about this is there are many fine people , arseociations and businesses there that will now be tarred with the 'Racist' brush. This means all the fine work many have done to inform the population at large of the good things pagans can and are doing will now be suspect. I do hope people involved in 'out-reach' programmes will not be effected by this and hope they keep their membership separate from their efforts on pagan's behalf. It will mean treading carefully for them , because it's out in the open now.

However, as you pointed out, PN has put THEIR business first, not those of the members, nor the members good works.

I'm afraid I have already and will be informing as many as possible about this very sad turn of events. There are many governmental and private sector agencies that want no part of Nazi doings. Now they will know.

PN still has time to redeem itself though I doubt it will happen as they are not known for admitting mistakes. This 'mistake' however, will not be so easy to ride out. Gay, black, Jewish or simply people repulsed by Nazi ideology will not knowingly become part of PN's 'business'.

Still, one must stand on their principles. Therefore, I will continue to inform as many people and groups as possible about this. Not in rancor or bitterness, but because people have the right to know what kind of people they are dealing with. Period.

Illgrace

[paulmitchell]

Hi all.

I would be wary of turning the heat up too much at this stage. I think 'the committee' have made a serious mistake in how they interpreted the thread that resulted in people (including me) being temporarily banned. In essence I think they simply got fed up with their stance being questioned.

The stance taken was, mostly, 'we have told you not to do it, because I keep getting phone calls with people moaning'. My observation is that if people want to take positions of responsibiliy then they should use them wisely or relinquish them In this instance sticking to a rule (which I don't think came about from the AGM) that had previously been made was seen as more important than allowing open discussion based on facts (and well played Illgrace for bringing those facts to light).

I think, deep down, certain mods are simply in the position to further their own "Pagan Cred'", and have got a bit of a power play going on. On this basis I think it would be unfair to tackle the business interests of the Pagan Network (by contacting shops etc), as, lets face it, if we were harsh with all arseholes then we'd be really busy.

But.... drawing attention to the way PN have handled this is, I think, legitmate, important, and expected. They know we have various forms of public adience, be it LJ, MySpace, performances on stage in front of several hundred pagans..... and they know we are likely to raise our grievences. So lets do it.

BUT... to be fair I think we should make sure that the message is presented properly... I don't think PN are racists, I just think they are misguided in several ways, and that this situation is an inevitable consequence of people taking on responsibilities because they can, rather than because they have anything real to offer a spiritual community other than those things highlighted in my "Administrators Song".

With regards to the AGM, I think sending a message explaining what we think went on in that thread would be useful, and also explaining any of the follow up action we have taken. Something from this board,perhaps, that we could all agree on. However, the response is likely to be "Join PN to make changes", which I will not do. It is simply far too amaturish an organisation, with too frequet crashes on the forum and too few people actually discussing stuf for me to shell out money to line some one's pockets. The mess of the All Fools Gathering in January, then the obviously doomed Hellabaloo belie the skills of those involved, and I don't want to send them my cash.

[Boojum]

Welcome to the board Paul.

Before I start, just because it's probably time to be open about this so Illgrace isn't getting all the flak on this issue, all the information on the DoF/Pan-Aryan forum link was actually tracked down by myself and passed onto her.

I'd largely agree with a lot of that. Let's be clear. From my perspective at least, the goal here really isn't to damage PN. That might be an unavoidable consequence from the fallout arising from this issue. (Which I have trouble caring about). But it certainly isn't my aim, neither do I want it to be the focus of this board. While I think this thread was necessary, in the long term I'm hoping we can widen the forum out so it isn't heavily weighted towards either the DoF or the PN issue.

I'd also agree that they aren't racists. I've seen absolutely no evidence that would lead me to think that. What I do think is that, on this issue at least, they've been cowardly and the stance they've taken is one of de facto appeasement. But I think that largely stems from the factors you outline, not from any ideological agreement with the far right.

Personally, I don't actually care if I'm reinstated on the forum or not. I think that I should be, because we're in the right here. But if I'm not, it's no biggie. What I'm actually far more interested in is that PN should adopt a clear and firm antifascist policy, to stop this kind of bollocks ever arising again.

I'm less minded then you to rule out hitting them economically I think. It's probably too much at the moment, when we're still hoping they'll resolve this properly of their own accord. But if that doesn't happen, I think we may have to reconsider.

Particuarly because of the role they play within Paganism. If we were just looking at a standard forum, it would be less of an issue. I'd use them as an example of Pagan cowardice on this subject and move on.

But PN are currently representing Paganism to the media as a whole. Largely, they do a perfectly good job. And I'm certainly not volunteering to do it instead. But if the subject of the far right and Paganism ever comes up, I have absolutely no confidence in their ability to handle it properly, certainly not at the moment. (That's also why I don't think the "join PN" argument holds water. They don't present themselves to the media as merely a corporate enterprise, they present themselves as representatives of the Pagan community. That position carries a fuck of a lot of responsibility and means it's entirely valid for 'outsiders' to take a direct interest in their actions. Whether they like it or not).

[paulmitchell]

I see they have removed the thread in question. That's odd, as I thought, although their argument was wrong, they could have defended it by directing people to the thread.

Now they have removed the identification of DoF with a neo-nazi organisation from the public view, which actually supports the charge that PN are, through their management of the discussion forum, accidentally supporting such organisations.

[illgrace]

Pagan Network's response was so weak as to be meaningless. I'm afraid it did not answer the question, merely restated their policies and also, shored up that those policies would not be changed, regardless of how repugnant the group who uses their site may be.

Let's parse this response from PN.

First, they write:

+Pagan Network would like to arseure its members and others that it in no way supports any neo-nazi group or any other controversial group which has been discussed here recently+

Followed in the next paragraph with:

++The locking of the thread and the banning of members is a direct result of the breaking of Pagan Network's rules regarding personal attack. The Committee issued an announcement on 30 Sept 2007 saying that a certain group would not be discussed on Pagan Network, however the thread in question deteriorated into discussion about this group, thereby breaking Pagan Network rules and therefore being locked++

In other words, one may not discuss or name a group, a known to be white supremacist group, if PN decides it should not. By not allowing the exposure of this group for what it is, they ARE 'supporting' them- they are protecting them from said exposure.

They go on to say any action in the future will result in the same expulsions, punishments and bannings. They hammer the 'rules' again.

One thing that Adolf learned after the first failed putsch was to attempt change by hammering the legality of it. I'm afraid I'm seeing the same thing here. By making it against the rules to name known neo-nazi groups such as the so-called 'Daughters of Frya', they are essentially protecting them and legalizing them on the forum. Apparently, even the naming this hate group breaks 'the rules'. PN will reserve the right to 'name and shame' whom they think should be exposed and other considerations such as people's knowledge that a group IS a hate group are of no consideration. So where does that leave pagans, especially young one's who are the target for DoF's recruitment? In ignorance of the possible danger. Sure, it 'protects' PN, but it puts it's members in jeopardy.

So, I'm not surprised they buried or deleted the thread. They want no 'track backs' to their forum from people who DO have problems with groups such as the DoF which attempt to recruit on Neo-Nazi forums and more importantly to this group: pagan forums.

++Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.++ J. Goebbels


People cannot fight or take protection against what they do not know about.The 'announcement' from PN was just another way of informing it's members that the committee, not the members, will decide what's fit for it's members to know. This makes a lie of their statement:

++We want Pagan Network to be a place where its members can discuss anything, even highly controversial matters++

(except if we don't think they should and if they do, they will be thrown out)

Illgrace

[illgrace]

paulmitchell said:

I see they have removed the thread in question. That's odd, as I thought, although their argument was wrong, they could have defended it by directing people to the thread.

Now they have removed the identification of DoF with a neo-nazi organisation from the public view, which actually supports the charge that PN are, through their management of the discussion forum, accidentally supporting such organisations.

Not odd at all if they want any connection to THIS forum to be cut so new or old members can't get the URL. Also, they seem to think that if they remove it, it won't get out. I'm afraid the internet doesn't work that way and the
'pagan' area is very intertwined so this forum cannot be censored.

If it's not the thread that has this link, then I think they are just lifting rug, brushing under and hoping it will go away.

Illgrace

[paulmitchell]

Has some one been banned permanently then?

[illgrace]

That's a rhetorical question, isn't it? ;D I'm just wondering who ( with the exception of a few people) HAVEN'T been banned that dared onto those/that thread!

Illgrace

[Boojum]

paulmitchell said:

Has some one been banned permanently then?

I'm pretty sure I have, though I haven't been told offically. Originally, it said on the forum my ban was for three weeks. That part of the message was removed. Shortly after I posted this thread, coincedentally enough.

I think wanting to remove the link to this forum is a big part of it. What they seem to be trying to do is to set up a 'straw man' argument, where they pretend we've accused them of being in agreement with fascist/racist ideology. Which obviously isn't the case and isn't what we're saying. But it's a lot easier for them to counter that then actually try and address the argument that we are making, that their actions have given succor to fascists within Paganism and continue to do so.

It does say something that none of the committee have had the courage to present their case on here, despite the fact it's quite obvious they're fully aware of what's being said. Far easier to try and argue where your opponent won't reply, I guess. I've said this before, but it bears repeating. PN do have the option of a right of reply here, even though that's not something that they extend to us. I won't stop them joining up and I won't censor their posts.

There's also several other things from that thread that I think probably led to its deletion.

1. The fact that the bulk of posters who were originally undecided on the issue seemed to come round to the arguments of those of us who were arguing for exposure. The brutal truth is that, when it came down to open debate, those trying to sweep the issue under the carpet lost.

2. Wemod actually admitting that the information posting was untrue and attempting a weak defense of their whites only policy. If it had been up to PN, that admission would never have happened.

3. The thread originally being given the go-ahead to continue by a mod. That's something they're going to want to hide- it means that people have been banned for getting involved in a thread for which express permission was given.

4. One of the reasons the thread was shut down was apparently 'complaints'. While no specifics were given, I think we can hazard a guess which group was behind them. If that is the case, buckling under pressure from fascists doesn't make PN look particuarly impressive.

5. The fact that bans were originally called for by a non-mod, then acted on. That could be a coincidence. If not, PN mods taking their orders from elsewhere might not be something they want on public record.

[caerthan]

paulmitchell said:

Has some one been banned permanently then?

I have, for participating in the thread and "threatening a moderator". I'm guessing that's because I said that if I didn't get a satisfactory reply to my request for a clear statement regarding PN's position on neo-nazi groups and racism, then I would write to other pagan organisations about the censoring of people naming neo-fascist etc. groups.

A little strange, really. If I go into a shop and don't get a legitimate complaint addressed to my satisfaction, they're hardly likely to escort me out of the shop for saying I'll report them to Trading Standards.

As for participating in the thread... well, it wasn't locked, and AFAIK no-one had told us not to post on it - only not to mention the Daughters of Frya. Which I didn't.

Caerthan

[paulmitchell]

Gosh, they've even blocked me looking at the forums now. They must be watching me! I never knew I was worth so much attention!

I wouldn't have thought they'd bother coming here and looking around though, really. I suspect they think they are in the right and that's an end to it.

[Boojum]

paulmitchell said:

Gosh, they've even blocked me looking at the forums now. They must be watching me! I never knew I was worth so much attention!

I wouldn't have thought they'd bother coming here and looking around though, really. I suspect they think they are in the right and that's an end to it.

Nah, they definitely are. This is their announcement in full:

As you may be aware a thread regarding neo-nazism has recently been locked and some members have been banned either permanently or temporarily. As a result of this certain statements are being made elsewhere regarding Pagan Network and its purported support for such groups. Pagan Network would like to assure its members and others that it in no way supports any neo-nazi group or any other controversial group which has been discussed here recently

The locking of the thread and the banning of members is a direct result of the breaking of Pagan Network's rules regarding personal attack. The Committee issued an announcement on 30 Sept 2007 saying that a certain group would not be discussed on Pagan Network, however the thread in question deteriorated into discussion about this group, thereby breaking Pagan Network rules and therefore being locked

We want Pagan Network to be a place where its members can discuss anything, even highly controversial matters, in a safe and secure environment without being bullied. We believe that, as adults, we should be able to discuss such matters calmly and intelligently without resorting to pettiness, witch hunting and paranoia. However, we will not tolerate the breaking of our rules and offenders will be dealt with accordingly as has been done on this occasion

How would they know that we've made "statements" if they weren't looking here already? (They could be looking at people's LJ's as well, but I can't see them doing that without checking here too).

Interestingly, they've also broken their own rules.

Remember, we are one big virtual community. We may not always agree with each others opinions, but we do respect one another. Deliberately starting arguments, attacking members, or becoming abusive because you don't agree with what others post will lead to a warning by the moderators on the thread, should the behaviour continue there will be a formal warning on the thread and by PM to the members involved, also any posts will be removed or moderated if needed. The final step will be a formal slap and posts will be removed and the thread locked if needed. If members continue this behaviour on other threads after receiving a warning, it is likely that they will be placed in the restricted user group or banned for a period of time. Likewise, trolling, baiting, bickering or otherwise disruptive or anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.

Funny. But I never got a formal PM before being banned. I can't speak for anyone else, obviously.

[debbifer]

admin said:

Wemod actually admitting that the information posting was untrue and attempting a weak defense of their whites only policy.

I noticed though that you didn't answer her questions.

Can a group choose its members on any basis it sees fit?

Does this imply that they support the persecution of those who they would not have in their group?

[Boojum]

debbifer said:

I noticed though that you didn't answer her questions.

Can a group choose its members on any basis it sees fit?

Evening Wemod.

Yes, but if that basis is racism, then the rest of us don't have any obligation to have anything to do with them. Anymore then I have to invite you round my house for tea and crumpets. There's places online where Nazi fucks can hang out. The general pagan community doesn't have to be one of them.

Does this imply that they support the persecution of those who they would not have in their group?

Technically, it was the posting on a neo-nazi forum that implied that.

And let's be clear. The only reason this came into the public light was because it was exposed. At no point have the DoF ever seen fit to mention this policy before, including on their website.

That's hardly the actions of a group with nothing to hide. In fact, when previously asked outright, Wemod tried to change the subject. Not only are the DoF fascists, they're also cowards.