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Post by Alistair on Nov 23, 2007 9:58:32 GMT
I think the point that you're missing is that what happened isn't just a matter of opinion or a subject for agreement or disagreement.
It's a clear matter of establishing facts, and what I think Jools is unhappy with is not that you disagree with her on anything, but that you seem to be in denial about what has actually happened and the way it happened.
If you disagree the points she outlined, then you weren't paying attention.
Some time ago, there could have been a case to be made that PN was fairly well representative of most UK pagans.
Because of all that's happened, and the way trust has eroded, saying it's now a minor forum, sadly, isn't far wrong.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 23, 2007 10:30:28 GMT
++However it is clear, despite what is said here about free speech, that you don't like to hear views which are different from your own. I'm comfortable here. You obviously don't like people disagreeing with you though and it seems that it is you that are uncomfortable.++ You're here, aren't you? You say you feel comfortable here, so obviously it's a welcoming environment. Haven't been gagged or banned or anything? Most of the posters on this board can't say the same of PN. There IS a lot to be said for free speech without punitive measures against the speakers,(or writers), isn't there? Too bad some other places didn't learn this. Also, Boo has consistently invited anyone to present their point of view to be taken into consideration and debated. As far as whether people join or not, that's up to them. At least they are given the option to. People who were never involved in the 'disapproved threads' or the censorship of certain matters (and so jump-started this board) at PN have been receiving flak from mod(s) at PN for doing so. Interesting. As far as 'success' goes, heh. Do you have ANY idea how wide spread and popular this board has become - not just in the U.K., but in Europe and North America as well? And it was set up, what, about 3 weeks ago? This is the fastest growing 'pagan' board I've ever seen. Also, the DoF is (hopefully) dead and that got done within days, whereas it lived on like the un-dead at PN for how long? But you know, the 'measure of success' is how far your message reaches and the good it will do. Information is only of 'value' when it is in motion and the information on this site is very much in motion seeing how far and fast it's traveled in such a short time. So, I think it's a 'success' by any measure. ++ If you want it to succeed then being prepared to genuinely consider other points of view is going to be important.++ ;D I REALLY think you should take that message 'home' with you. This board came into being because PN would NOT consider other points of view on a matter of deep importance to many,many pagans. By the way, you do realize that every time you come here with a 'message' from PN and get a response with their name in it, it moves this board faster and puts their name out there on the web re: this forum? Thank you. ;D Just thought you should know that. Illgrace
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Post by Boojum on Nov 23, 2007 10:41:37 GMT
;D I REALLY think you should take that message 'home' with you. This board came into being because PN would NOT consider other points of view on matter of deep importance to many,many pagans. Small quibble. The timing was affected by PN, but I'd have got round to this sooner or later without them. Honest, I would have.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 23, 2007 10:53:41 GMT
Yeah, we know. But until we found the BBQ starter, you just wouldn't stop surfing for Pasta origami and playing cats-cradle with that damn piece of string for hours at a time! ;D
Illgrace - don't worry, my quibbler just ran out of batteries.*snerk*
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jools
New Member
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Post by jools on Nov 23, 2007 12:00:30 GMT
However it is clear, despite what is said here about free speech, that you don't like to hear views which are different from your own. I'm comfortable here. You obviously don't like people disagreeing with you though and it seems that it is you that are uncomfortable. LOL way to misunderstand me there. I don't mind hearing views different from my own at all. A constructive discussion about how I am wrong, with reference to exactly where I was wrong and a rebuttal of each wrongness will be fine by me. I notice though that you have neither discussed not denied any of the points I brought up. Which means you are not here to discuss things - you are here to shitstir. As Alistair rightly pointed out, I do not consider PN a major forum anymore. Once it was. Once it was large and vibrant and contributed to paganism in the UK. Now it is small, with a depleted membership who never post anything apart from news links and chit chat. I do notice for someone who defends them so rigorously, you post very little there. if at all. Strange that. Anyway, thats by the by. You have had responses to all your snipes and niggles, you have ignored plain facts and proof of goings on, yet the best you can do is 'ohhhh you said freedom of speech but you try to censor me!!' No we don't, we are just bored of you saying the same old thing over and over again, ad nauseum. *sigh* Perhaps we shouldn't feed the troll any more guys. We seem to have moved on to more concerning things now.
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Post by Alistair on Nov 23, 2007 12:00:41 GMT
I just want to add a couple more things about PN, and then I'll shut up about it until I'm allowed back there (as my ban was temporary, I'm hoping they'll stick to that and I've decided I will be participating again).
Lets just chill out...
Illgrace - I know you feel strongly about everything that happened, but I'm worried you'll undermine all the good points you've made by taking it too far.
I don't think that we should ascribe to conspiracy, hidden agendas, ambition or wicked evilness what has occurred because of the general difficulties of coping with the hands the committee there has been dealt.
The people who are running things are doing so pretty much by default. They're doing it because they feel they have to, not because they wanted to stand for election. The committee is also way down in numbers compared to what it was intended to be.
I do think that the 'doing a difficult job in difficult circumstances' situation fully applies to the PN committee at the moment.
I don't think that excuses some very bad decisions, but it perhaps makes them a little more understandable.
If they were to admit that bad decisions were made, then I think it would put them in a stronger position. However, at the moment they can claim that we are attacking them and make us out to be the bad guys when we've no right to reply there.
I really, genuinely want PN to be something that I can support. Right now it isn't, but it very easily could be if mistakes are learned from.
However, I think that Jools' statment and detailing of events, missteps and broken rules is sufficient.
Lets just let that stand and call time on criticism of PN now.
Take the high road, guys.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 23, 2007 12:21:38 GMT
++Illgrace - I know you feel strongly about everything that happened, but I'm worried you'll undermine all the good points you've made by taking it too far.++
Eh? You've lost me there. I don't know what you mean by 'too far'. I have been speaking about policy and actions, not " you're ugly and your mom dresses you funny" ;D
You are basically using the 'Chernobyl' defense. It may be the case that people are flailing and not wanting to call Moscow to tell them the test is a failure in case they get in trouble, but it's a little late after the fact, yeah? Also, they may have been understaffed, but the staff that WAS there when this was going on were all experienced people, not newbies who couldn't handle a problem. And those experienced people made a choice. It was a bad one, but that doesn't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
I was trying to protect PN by 'outing' the DoF and showing what had been found re: their connection to a Nazi forum on the board. I can't see where that was so wrong.YMMV, of course.
I'm sorry people were upset by it , but more sorry that other's who were concerned with the issue also got the 'shoot the messenger' treatment. But I can't ever bring myself to be sorry for 'outing' a toxic group or organization.
As far as I'm concerned, PN does not exist anymore for me. And mind, I contributed a whole load of things there, so it's not like I was busy working to undermine the forum! No one could say that, I shouldn't think. I think you may be misinterpreting animosity for simply stating the case of a matter from one ( my) point of view. I'm not one to shoot myself in the foot and deprive myself of the pleasure of cordial exchange and rigorous debate on a forum I enjoy(ed).
And frankly, I can't see how things could get worse, really.
Illgrace
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Post by Alistair on Nov 23, 2007 13:13:33 GMT
I accept what you're saying, but think we should just let our points stand and leave it at that.
Because, you know, things can *always* get worse...
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Post by AndyN on Nov 23, 2007 19:51:24 GMT
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Post by paulmitchell on Nov 23, 2007 21:09:42 GMT
;D
Now, I'm guessing I'm probably a cat, but who is arrogant enough to see themselves as a Shepard I wonder......
This thread is turning into one worthy of a certain other board. I'll just pop over there now and see what's happening.
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jools
New Member
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Post by jools on Nov 23, 2007 22:24:06 GMT
A very apt link, Andy. I notice the majority of the commenters on that post completely missed the point, which reminds me of someone.....can't think who.....will come to me in a bit....
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