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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 9:47:03 GMT
So tell us the 'truth'. WHY did the DoF choose to both advertise their 'training' and also, agree with many of the race-hate posts at Pan Aryan Alliance if you do not condone violence? After all, their bottom line is that those they don't care for should be eliminated - you know, killed? Or do you not view the killing of those 'other' than you as 'violence'? Interesting. Illgrace Twisting words yet again.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 9:51:16 GMT
No, the phrase 'training' at your ,hmm, place? ( I can understand you not liking the words 'Nazi' and 'Camp' together - people remember Nazi camps too well) was used by you, or 'Kornelia' who offered training at the DoF at the Pan Aryan Alliance site. I have the screen shot, as do many others. The PN decided to delete. Others did not.If you would like to refresh your memory, just type in Daughters of Frya and look at my LJ. But you've dodged the question again. Please answer it. Trying to side-track it isn't going to work. CAN you answer the question? Yes or no? If you don't, then the answer is obvious to anyone but the brain-dead. Illgrace Yes, and it was you who put the word 'camp' in there, no doubt for the very reason you have just highlighted. This is a typical propagandist's tool, attacking one's opponent for something they haven't even said. Why did the DoF place a notice there? They have placed notices on many, many sites. It does not mean they agree with the policies of those sites. Have you considered the possibilty that they might have gone their in order to correct a few misunderstandings? LOL, LOL! Please point out here the 'misunderstandings' the DoF pointed out to the Nazi's? And lots of places post in many other places. Funny you don't see many 'non-Aryan' and non 'White Supremacist' groups posting in such places. Please me a list of all (or as many as you can think of) Jewish, Gay, Non-White, Non-'Aryan' groups that choose Nazi groups to promote their sites? Go on, give it a try, Tony. By the way, you STILL haven't answered the question. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 9:56:19 GMT
LOL, LOL! Please point out here the 'misunderstandings' the DoF pointed out to the Nazi's? And lots of places post in many other places. Funny you don't see many 'non-Aryan' and non 'White Supremacist' groups posting in such places. Please me a list of all (or as many as you can think of) Jewish, Gay, Non-White, Non-'Aryan' groups that choose Nazi groups to promote their sites? Go on, give it a try, Tony. By the way, you STILL haven't answered the question. Illgrace Tony? Are you assuming that I'm the Tony who I think you're assuming? If so you are mistaken. He resigned as head of the OAM in 2002. I thought this was quite well known within the Pagan community. Anyhow, I was under the impression that I had just answered your question. If not, please let me know in what way I haven't.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 9:56:39 GMT
So tell us the 'truth'. WHY did the DoF choose to both advertise their 'training' and also, agree with many of the race-hate posts at Pan Aryan Alliance if you do not condone violence? After all, their bottom line is that those they don't care for should be eliminated - you know, killed? Or do you not view the killing of those 'other' than you as 'violence'? Interesting. Illgrace Twisting words yet again. Then please, 'untwist' them. Really. Defend such places and your involvment with them. But answer the other questions first. It's only polite ;D Illgrace
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 10:00:08 GMT
LOL, LOL! Please point out here the 'misunderstandings' the DoF pointed out to the Nazi's? And lots of places post in many other places. Funny you don't see many 'non-Aryan' and non 'White Supremacist' groups posting in such places. Please me a list of all (or as many as you can think of) Jewish, Gay, Non-White, Non-'Aryan' groups that choose Nazi groups to promote their sites? Go on, give it a try, Tony. By the way, you STILL haven't answered the question. Illgrace Not according to your current on-line sites!!! Illgrace - go on, take a peek -apparently you are still there, Tony Tony? Are you assuming that I'm the Tony who I think you're assuming? If so you are mistaken. He resigned as head of the OAM in 2002. I thought this was quite well known within the Pagan community. Anyhow, I was under the impression that I had just answered your question. If not, please let me know in what way I haven't.
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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 10:01:57 GMT
Not according to your current on-line sites!!! Illgrace - go on, take a peak -apparently you are still there, Tony Tony? Are you assuming that I'm the Tony who I think you're assuming? If so you are mistaken. He resigned as head of the OAM in 2002. I thought this was quite well known within the Pagan community. Anyhow, I was under the impression that I had just answered your question. If not, please let me know in what way I haven't. Current on-line sites? What do you mean?
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 10:04:23 GMT
Current on-line sites? What do you mean? Dodge. And you still haven't answered any of the direct questions to you. This is getting tedious. Man, your style hasn't changed one ort. WHY are you NOT answering the questions? And please, don't write 'what questions' , they are all still there. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 10:07:24 GMT
Current on-line sites? What do you mean? Dodge. And you still haven't answered any of the direct questions to you. This is getting tedious. Man, your style hasn't changed one ort. WHY are you NOT answering the questions? And please, don't write 'what questions' , they are all still there. Illgrace No, it isn't a dodge. I would really like to know what 'on-line sites' you were referring to, so I can check them out. As for why the DoF posted there, I've already told you why. They posted in lots of places, it doesn't mean they agree with the policies of those places.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 13, 2007 10:11:48 GMT
Dodge. And you still haven't answered any of the direct questions to you. This is getting tedious. Man, your style hasn't changed one ort. WHY are you NOT answering the questions? And please, don't write 'what questions' , they are all still there. Illgrace No, it isn't a dodge. I would really like to know what 'on-line sites' you were referring to, so I can check them out. As for why the DoF posted there, I've already told you why. They posted in lots of places, it doesn't mean they agree with the policies of those places. No, you DIDN'T say why, you wrote ++Have you considered the possibilty that they might have gone their in order to correct a few misunderstandings?++ And when pressed on what 'misunderstandings' you were helping to clear up at a Nazi forum - you didn't respond. And I'm not about to waste anymore time doing something anybody (even you!) can do for yourself: check your sites, check the dates. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 13, 2007 10:16:51 GMT
No, you DIDN'T say why, you wrote ++Have you considered the possibilty that they might have gone their in order to correct a few misunderstandings?++ And when pressed on what 'misunderstandings' you were helping to clear up at a Nazi forum - you didn't respond. And I'm not about to waste anymore time doing something anybody (even you!) can do for yourself: check your sites, check the dates. Illgrace What sites? I think this is just another example of you lying in order to bolster your arguments. Please give me the adresses, or even just the names, of the 'on-line sites' to which you referred, because it appears they are giving false information. If you do not do so I must assume that they exist only in your imagination. We can continue this discussion afterwards.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 13, 2007 10:20:41 GMT
*Moderator hat on* This discussion has got way off topic, so I've started a new thread (and created a new subforum)- pafr.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=fash&action=display&thread=1194949136Please move all further discussion there. I'll let the current posts stand, as I can't figure out how to move them, but I will start deleting any off-topic posts after this. *Moderator hat off*
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Post by Boojum on Nov 13, 2007 11:10:48 GMT
Welcome to the board Andy. Firstly these are just my own personal comments and do not necessarily reflect the views of any Pagans organisations to which I belong - and there are a few That (personal opinions) is probably best to assume for anyone on here- the only person that seems to be offically representing a group in any way is Debbifer. Hmm, aren't accusations of "bitchcraft" ad hominem attacks themselves? It's the Pagan equivalent of accusing everyone who disagrees with you of being a troll. I don't think anyone was planning to accuse you of being a Nazi. I think you're wrong, but that's entirely different. To try and cover all of the points you make. Have you read the rest of the board? This is the only thread that even mentions PN. So it does strike me that we're already doing precisely what you call for, surely? The comment about PN being a business was originally made by someone on the deleted thread (not anybody who posts on here). It wasn't disagreed with by any of the PN committee. All we've done is repeated it. And I think you've misunderstood what the "pro-fascist" allegation actually means. Nobody is seriously suggesting that PN are in support of fascist ideology. What is being suggested is that their recent actions give support to fascist groups, therefore are 'pro-fascist' in design, if not intent. I defend that allegation in detail elsewhere on this thread. Let's be clear about this. If it had been left up to the PN Committee, nobody on there would know that the DoF have been recruiting on a fascist forum. It's slightly more complicated then that, Internet law is still fluid. However, that's neither here nor there. Because I would argue that a reasonable person could hold the opinion that PN's actions are objectively pro-fascist. The justification defense in other words. What untruths do you believe have been posted?
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Post by Andy N on Nov 13, 2007 11:55:52 GMT
I think what I said was quite clear. My post was about the idiotic attacks on PN at the beginning of this thread. That was what I meant by bitchcraft.
I do not like neo-nazi groups and I've said so often and publicly, including to the media in interviews about Paganism. I think the statement made by PN is also quite clear - they don't like neo-nazi groups either.
I suggest that Illgrace and others here who don't like nasty neo-nazi organisations actually focus their efforts on those organisations. Just try and pick the right targets.
The sort of rhetoric I've read here and elsewhere may actually be counterproductive in that it raises the profile of what may be very small groups.
Making defamatory statements in writing is libel - whether they are made on paper or on-line. Whether or not anyone takes legal action about them would depend on a lot of factors - whether they take them seriously, whether they have the money and time and so forth. Whether or not any part of the media, or those who run on-line forums, think it's worth the risk of being sued by publishing defamatory statements is up to them.
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Post by Andy N on Nov 13, 2007 12:25:20 GMT
My point about bitchcraft was that not every claim made here or anywhere else should necessarily be taken at face value. Some people have "issues" with various other individuals and organisations. Having a go at some group or other, or individuals, on the basis of relatively flimsy excuses is unfortunately all too common in Paganism.
(BTW why do so many people hide behind pseudonyms?)
If this thread is now a general discussion about how to deal with neo-nazi or fascist organisations why not change the title? Failing to do so does suggest that PN is tarred with the same grubby brush as fascist organisations that you are discussing and that is simply not true.
Boojum writes "Nobody is seriously suggesting that PN are in support of fascist ideology. What is being suggested is that their recent actions give support to fascist groups, therefore are 'pro-fascist' in design, if not intent. "
Boojum seems to want to have this all ways. People have seriously suggested that PN are in support of fascist ideology. Boojum himself after saying that no one suggests PN supports fascist ideology immediately goes on to say that... their actions are proto-fascist. Where's the logic in statements like that?
I think I'll assume that Boojum really does mean that PN isn't a fascist organisation. It doesn't take much effort to find that out anyway.
I do not believe that any reasonable person could possibly consider that PN has acted in any way that is pro-fascist. To claim that this is so is untrue. To come back to where I started I wonder just who posting on this thread has axes to grind and what they might be?
It is understandable that people have concerns about some groups that have fascist/nazi agendas. I certainly do. It's excellent that people want to do something about these groups. So why don't they focus on where the problems actually are instead of coming up with misplaced zeal against an organisation that isn't like that at all. A good place to start would be renaming the thread.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 13, 2007 15:53:43 GMT
I think what I said was quite clear. My post was about the idiotic attacks on PN at the beginning of this thread. That was what I meant by bitchcraft. Fair enough, but as I stated, I think that's an ad hominem attack- it isn't an attempt to argue on issues. Well, firstly, they pretty much state outright in that statement that it's only been made because of this forum specifically. It also avoids the specifics of the issue. As I said, if we had left it up to them, nobody would have known that the DoF were recruiting on a fascist site. That's what people were banned for pointing out. It's possible to do both, surely? If you look elsewhere on the forum, I've posted a detailed expose of David Icke's use of antisemitic themes. I've also posted links to anti fascist Satanists and Asatru. And a large collection of links on the occult and sexuality. None of those have anything to do with PN at all. Well, by exposing these groups' ideology from the start, the whole point is to try and keep them small. You misunderstand me I think. I agree that people who run forums are as liable for defamation as the print media. Where our disagreement lies is that I do not believe that any comments have been posted in this thread that are not covered entirely by the justification defense. Agreed totally. In the end, all I expect to do is to explain it from my personal perspective and leave people to make up their own minds. Quite honestly, if I wasn't looking at it like that, don't you think I'd delete your posts from this thread? I welcome the fact that you're putting across an opposing opinion- that way people can get as broad a picture of the facts as possible. Well, I use this username pretty much exclusively as far as online paganism is concerned. And my real life identity is hardly a secret anyway. But this might go some way to answering your question- www. redwatch.net But it isn't. It is a discussion of the recent events regarding PN. I do take your point though and have modified the title somewhat. Although I suspect you'll still not agree with it. Where? If they were in support of fascist ideology, they'd be fascists. That's not what I see anyone saying. Pro, not proto. (Sorry if I'm picking up on a typo, but that's an important distinction). To try and explain what I mean a different way. Neville Chamberlain wasn't a fascist or a supporter of the ideology. But his actions were still pro-fascist, because they allowed fascism to grow stronger. I thought I was clear on that, but to make sure. I in no way believe that PN as an organisation, or any individual member of the committee, is a holder of either fascist or racist beliefs. Indeed, my view is that the opposite is true. My criticism is of the effects I think the actions and policy of PN will have, not of the personal ideology of any individual members. That we disagree on. I think that any reasonable person would consider that attempting to silence open discussion of fascist affiliations of Pagan groups gives them succor. Speaking for myself, none. As far as I know, I have never met a member of the PN committee, nor any any contact with them off their board. This is political, not personal. As I pointed out above, a large section of what you're calling for is precisely what's on the rest of the board.
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