rowan
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by rowan on Nov 14, 2007 21:24:14 GMT
I am still astonished that a forum concerned about justice can be a place where unjustified and unjustifiable allegations are being made about PN. They say they don't support or approve of neo-nazi/fascist groups. To me this is a very clear statement and means that they cannot legitimately be called pro-fascist. I don't think PN are pro-fascist at all, but like others here I do think they were wrong in the way they dealt with all this. And I certainly don't think the vast majority of PN board members are pro-fascist either - it appears that some of them think they are being accused of being so purely by association?
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Post by Alistair on Nov 14, 2007 21:37:37 GMT
Just one thing that I want to add to this, where I feel a point has been missed:
There is no fascist group.
There's someone with an Internet connection posting in a fascist forum, who knows this probably be found easily, in order to gain notoriety for their fiction suit.
I can't help feeling that whilst this forum's aims are admirable, it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction and is also being laughed at by the person behind the DoF.
But, you know, if you want to start an occult anti-fascist forum, that's kinda cool, so fuck 'em.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 14, 2007 22:10:33 GMT
Just one thing that I want to add to this, where I feel a point has been missed: There is no fascist group. There's someone with an Internet connection posting in a fascist forum, who knows this probably be found easily, in order to gain notoriety for their fiction suit. I can't help feeling that whilst this forum's aims are admirable, it's a bit of a knee jerk reaction and is also being laughed at by the person behind the DoF. But, you know, if you want to start an occult anti-fascist forum, that's kinda cool, so fuck 'em. The DoF isn't worth the physiological energy it takes for a knee-jerk reaction. Don't give them that much credit. I wouldn't bother to piss on them to put them out if they were on fire - IF they hadn't been at this recruitment thing for YEARS. Their first 'target' was young girls. I cannot let such pass. The next incarnation was as Nazis. The point is that extremist hate groups are using pagan forums to recruit. Anybody is free to be a member of anything . I find my membership in the 'Juggling Fiery Monkeys Association' to be very useful ;D. However, when someone on a Nazi board is known to be ACTIVELY recruiting on said board for the same group they were advertising on a pagan forum ( thus raising the possibility of young, ill-informed people being taken in), then I don't think asking them about it should be a problem . That it is WAS a problem at the forum in question is and has become obvious by the sheer volume of bannings of people who spoke up ( and who named no names - Boo even started this forum to take people away from PN and so save them problems) . There is even a post on PN right now castigating THIS forum and it's members. Hello. So, if one was dealing with people who could make some of the simple distinctions that have been made here - no problem. But! We aren't. ++But, you know, if you want to start an occult anti-fascist forum, that's kinda cool, so fuck 'em.++ Bingo! By the way, nice to 'see' you. I'm afraid the bouncers at a certain place won't let me in anymore so we can't enjoy Irony together anymore Illgrace
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Post by Boojum on Nov 14, 2007 22:35:52 GMT
The fascinating thing about all this is the irony. I'm talking about the issue of free speech. It seems that people are permitted to say what they like so long as some other people like it too... And that in itself is ironic. Look at it this way. Any member of the PN committee who wants to defend themselves is perfectly free to. The converse is not true. Everything I (or anybody else) has to say on the matter is being done entirely publically, as opposed to in hidden forums. The converse is not true. Etc. If you're talking about Debbifer, yep, that is the case. As this is a forum for anti racist/anti facist pagans and Debbifer is not either, different rules apply. The opposition have their own subforum where they can post freely. I don't see the need for them to have a free rein to join in internal discussions as well. Obviously, if anybody wants to set up a forum dedicated to the principle of absolute free speech, they're very welcome to. And if they want to criticise this forum in the way I am PN, yeah, I'm happy for them to do that as well. But in your case, are you seriously complaining that I've censored you in any way? See my previous comments. Sweeping the fact a group are posting on a Nazi forum under the carpet and refusing to allow groups with these affiliations to be named is acting in a way that gives comfort to fascists. Different situation. If a forum is claiming that it's about Paganism and allows controversial topics to be discussed, then surely it logically follows that the subject in question is a legitimate one? I ask again, have you seen the thread in question? If not, I think you have to accept that those of us that have (including the PN committee) are working with evidence not available to you. That's not my doing. I would unconditionally welcome the reappearence of the thread in question, even if locked, so people could make up their own minds with all the facts in front of them. Why don't you ask PN for a copy of the thread? Not for publication here, obviously. Just for yourself. If it is the case that one side of this argument is happy for all the facts to be out in the open and the other isn't, I think it's valid to suggest you should ask yourself why that might be. I'm going to repeat the quote I made in my first post to this thread, as it sums up my position precisely: Hold no troth with the first sort of Folkist. Do not allow them onto our lists. Do not allow a single ignorant statement go unchallenged. You moderators, do not shut down threads where these conversations arise. Do not allow the errors of thought of the second sort of Folkist to pass unchallenged. Do not give them the veneer of respectability that silence on their weaknesses grants. Do not hold their ideas to be as valid or serious as those of other heathens. Do not allow their racism to infect our troth just because it is a hidden, seemingly irrelevant form of racism. Do not treat them as "just another way of looking at things, as valid as any other".
To those who would, no matter what, try to keep silent from fear or from a desire to be left in peace, I say "shame on you." You are not taking responsibility for your actions, for your decisions. You make us weak, now, when we most need to be strong. You are not my kinfolk.Do you broadly agree with it? How is what is being described not an exact summary of current PN policy?
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Post by yewberry on Nov 15, 2007 8:55:37 GMT
Sorry, you cannot talk yourself out of it. YOU ADVERTISED FOR RECRUITS ON A NAZI FORUM. That TELLS people 'who you hate'. Does it? I love it here. I don't have to pretend you're someone else, Tony. Brina
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Post by debbifer on Nov 15, 2007 9:12:15 GMT
I love it here. I don't have to pretend you're someone else, Tony. Brina I'm not the person you think I am.
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Post by Alistair on Nov 15, 2007 9:16:53 GMT
None of us, my dear... none of us are...
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Post by Andy N on Nov 15, 2007 9:28:10 GMT
I can see some of aren't going to agree on some issues.
Free speech cuts both ways. I think we can agree on that.
I still do not accept the view that is being promoted of PN because it is not logical. On the OBOD web site someone has just posted a link to an article about an apparent ritual sacrifice by a Qmbanda group. One of the OBODies has pointed out that this sort of thing has nowt to do with Druidry or other kinds of Paganism and has gone on to say that she doesn't think it will be useful to discuss it on the OBOD boards. Now some people using the the strange reasoning applied in this thread are presumably going to turn round and claim that OBOD are pro human sacrifice... It would be using the same odd idea about how actions should be interpreted in this thread and would clearly be nonsensical.
This thread is all rather a sad waste of time in DoF really are just the fantasies of one person stirring the internet pot for fun. More than that it's giving a great deal more importance to this specific possibly non-existent group than it could possibly deserve.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 15, 2007 9:31:00 GMT
I love it here. I don't have to pretend you're someone else, Tony. Brina Brina! People, let me introduce a woman who if she were a shark, could track the blood from a cut finger from the coast of California that originated off the coast of Australia! She was the one that identified the 'DoF' picture on their first site of their 'members as the 'Green River Girls Tennis Team' with Coach Tuttle in attendance from a team picture from the U.S.! She has also forced the DoF to take off copyrighted pictures from their site(s). *wipes tear of both laughter and respect*. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 15, 2007 9:34:08 GMT
Brina! People, let me introduce a woman who if she were a shark, could track the blood from a cut finger from the coast of California that originated off the coast of Australia! She was the one that identified the 'DoF' picture on their first site of their 'members as the 'Green River Girls Tennis Team' with Coach Tuttle in attendance from a team picture from the U.S.! She has also forced the DoF to take off copyrighted pictures from their site(s). *wipes tear of both laughter and respect*. Illgrace The DoF site was hacked by an ex-member trying to discredit them. You know that, right?
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Post by illgrace on Nov 15, 2007 9:38:07 GMT
I can see some of aren't going to agree on some issues. This thread is all rather a sad waste of time in DoF really are just the fantasies of one person stirring the internet pot for fun. More than that it's giving a great deal more importance to this specific possibly non-existent group than it could possibly deserve. How 'fun' do you think it would be if a young girl responded to his add, or a young girl's parents contacted the DoF about their daughter attending a hate-group training camp? Please remember, DoF have been posting all over the net, the 'Pan Aryan Alliance' one is just one their most recent. They have been trying for recruits for years and not everyone that responds will have read opinions as to the veracity of their claims. The people at the PAA, for instance. At what point does one decide that other people have the same ability to discriminate between bullshit and reality, especially if it fits in with their prior beliefs and they have not access or inclination to visit other forums?Serious question. Their own fault for believing the lies so no harm, no foul? Don't you think as much info. as possible should be out there and not buried? Please also remember that they were telling people they took girls as young as 12. Illgrace
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Post by debbifer on Nov 15, 2007 9:41:06 GMT
How 'fun' do you think it would be if a young girl responded to his add, or a young girl's parents contacted the DoF about their daughter attending a hate-group training camp? Please remember, DoF have been posting all over the net, the 'Pan Aryan Alliance' one is just one their most recent. They have been trying for recruits for years and not everyone that responds will have read opinions as to the veracity of their claims. The people at the PAA, for instance. At what point does one decide that other people have the same ability to discriminate between bullshit and reality, especially if it fits in with their prior beliefs and they have not access or inclination to visit other forums?Serious question. Their own fault for believing the lies so no harm, no foul? Don't you think as much info. as possible should be out there and not buried? Illgrace Yet again you talk about 'young girls'. The DoF do not accept anyone under 19, as it states very clearly on their website. And it's not a 'training camp' either, those are your words not the DoF's. Oh, and the DoF are not a 'hate group'.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 15, 2007 10:14:57 GMT
How 'fun' do you think it would be if a young girl responded to his add, or a young girl's parents contacted the DoF about their daughter attending a hate-group training camp? Please remember, DoF have been posting all over the net, the 'Pan Aryan Alliance' one is just one their most recent. They have been trying for recruits for years and not everyone that responds will have read opinions as to the veracity of their claims. The people at the PAA, for instance. At what point does one decide that other people have the same ability to discriminate between bullshit and reality, especially if it fits in with their prior beliefs and they have not access or inclination to visit other forums?Serious question. Their own fault for believing the lies so no harm, no foul? Don't you think as much info. as possible should be out there and not buried? Illgrace Yet again you talk about 'young girls'. The DoF do not accept anyone under 19, as it states very clearly on their website. And it's not a 'training camp' either, those are your words not the DoF's. Oh, and the DoF are not a 'hate group'. What * I* was responding to was a question about forum policies. Again, it has been pointed out to you that there is a 'specific' folder just for you to post in. Please stop bending posts on other subjects to your groups concerns. Thank you.Illgrace
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Post by Andy N on Nov 15, 2007 10:18:04 GMT
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Post by debbifer on Nov 15, 2007 10:25:14 GMT
Notice the difference in spelling though. Freya is a later version of the name Frya, to be sure, but was worshipped with very different attributes.
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