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Post by paulmitchell on Nov 17, 2007 16:01:37 GMT
I'm interested in how people perceive and respond to racist comments on discussion boards. For example, I am currently responding to a racist joke posted on an American generic pagan board. The joke is about getting muslim men to commit suicide, so weeding out potential terrorists. I have (probably quite clumsily) drawn a parallel with those who celebrate their Irishness and the IRA......
However, on other occasions I have felt totally disinclined to challenge racism, feeling that there would be little impact arising from such action.
I am interested in peoples thoughts, and don't want to limit any input, but would also like to hear about how people respond to comments regarding terrorism / freedom fighting within the context of 'racism'. What do you think?
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Lee
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Post by Lee on Nov 18, 2007 16:38:56 GMT
I usually don't respond, unless it's directed at me, or at one of my friends. Or if it's just so outrageous that I can't let it lie. Or if I'm staff on that particular forum, in which case I have to do something.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 18, 2007 20:31:57 GMT
If it's presented as a joke, I tend to respond with ridicule. That way, the person can't accuse you of "overeacting". The exact method depends heavily on the board ethos- there are forums that would consider some things "flaming" that other forums wouldn't even comment on.
If it's more serious, I have a tendency to combine agressively asking for substantiation with as many facts and figures I can muster.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 18, 2007 20:40:06 GMT
Heh.
If I don't feel in the mood for getting out the arsenic, I simply get a doe-eyed dumb look on and say " I don't get it, what's the joke?"
If it's an obvious racist joke, then I will just tell them to ..... ( depending on how rude I feel).
Every time someone stays silent, it is a tacit agreement. I KNOW this is hard and I don't expect others to be so vocal - walking away frequently gives the same message ( especially if they like you).
Also realize 'entrenched' racism. I read someone on a forum the other day who is the LEAST racist person I have met, yet they made a distinction between black people and white about something that had no distinction. Don't forget the culture people are raised in.
How many women use the expression 'Rule of Thumb' not knowing where that comes from? and...etc.
Again, case by case basis and how stroppy you feel and also, whether the person even realizes they are being racist. I have also seen people horrified when they realize what they've just said. So, education and mind the words used.
Illgrace
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Post by Michael on Nov 25, 2007 17:51:06 GMT
How many women use the expression 'Rule of Thumb' not knowing where that comes from? and...etc. I had never heard of the origins of the term so looked it up... Wiki:
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Post by illgrace on Nov 26, 2007 4:59:12 GMT
I sit partially corrected ;D [HERE]So, lets try some other terms in common usage. (oh, I'm NOT saying you use these!, they are just better examples) " He gypped me out of my money" ++ Main Entry: 1gyp Listen to the pronunciation of 1gyp Pronunciation: \ˈjip\ Function: noun Etymology: short for gypsy Date: 1750 1British : a college servant2 a: cheat, swindler b: fraud, swindle++ " He tried to welsh on his debt" ++ Main Entry: welsh Listen to the pronunciation of welsh Listen to the pronunciation of welsh Pronunciation: \ˈwelsh, ˈWelsh\ Variant(s): also welch Listen to the pronunciation of welch \ˈwelch\ Function: intransitive verb Etymology: probably from Welsh, adjective Date: 1905 1sometimes offensive : to avoid payment —used with on2sometimes offensive : to break one's word : renege — welsh·er noun sometimes offensive " He tried to jew me down" ++needs no dictionary definition, I shouldn't think++ " He's just being bolshi" ++bolshie (also bolshy) Brit. informal • adjective deliberately combative or uncooperative. — DERIVATIVES bolshiness noun. — ORIGIN from BOLSHEVIK.++ ( the above is just silly when one knows what the word 'Bolshevic' means ). I hear this one in the U.K. a lot ( it's not used here) and it always puzzled me why people 1) thought someone behaving badly was a Bolshevic and 2) Why it was such an insult to be one! I was on a board in the U.K. where people insisted that the French think its just sweet and cute to be referred to as 'frogs'. Here, you'd either get walked away from or get your dental work re-arranged. When I suggested that this term was offensive, I got hit with 1) You have to understand the British use such words as terms of endearment and people from other countries understand that - you don't". Well, I've lived many years in the U.K. and I still find jokes regarding race, creed , colour or (and this is a biggie there), class, distasteful. 2) " Your are just being too P.C.". I don't happen to think that means anything...at all in terms of being a bad thing. What is so damn wrong with not wanting to verbally shite on people for their 'otherness'? Mind, I'm resident in North America now where the first three are used a lot, but 'bolshi' wouldn't mean a thing. I also realize that language is organic and fluid and meanings change over time. However, I do think there are some words (frog) or expressions ("that was mighty white of you") we could drop without impoverishing the language . I heard the word '(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night)' a lot in the U.K. and had to ask what it meant ( unfortunately, it's drifted over this way now). I also realize that words and ideas get entrenched by common usage. For instance, I've noticed that most American Newspapers I read will identify the race of the subject of the article " A young black man" " a young white woman" whereas I have never seen that in the papers in my area and I always get a little jolt when I read it , like 'what difference does their colour make - the poor person was hit by a car!". Or their religion will get mentioned " She was a Fine upstanding Christian Girl". Eh? So to identify someone by their colour or religion or race or to use expressions that are in common use seems an acceptable thing to do. I just don't happen to think so. It's just my opinion that such entrenchments merely serve to justify and intensify problems, not ameliorate them or remove artificial barriers of 'otherness' in people's minds. And quite simply, I don't think that is a viable 'excuse' to go on using terms people know others WILL find offensive. I think that applies as much 'on-line' as if one were standing in front of the person one was using a pejorative term of: perhaps more so, because more people are likely to be exposed to it. I think the term 'Racist Joke' is an oxymoron: what's funny about a racist remark? Illgrace
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rowan
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Post by rowan on Nov 26, 2007 19:52:54 GMT
You could always ask them if they're really happy about being known as a 'whinging pom' or any other derogatory terms people use? I think if someone thinks being called a particular name is offensive, then it is offensive and shouldn't be used, what's so difficult for people to understand about that? I think sometimes the 'you're being too pc' attitude is a poor excuse for rudeness, insults and racism. Being 'too pc' means to me daft things like using 'chalkboard' instead of blackboard. It's just a descriptive word like green, pink or purple! (Hope you're not going to tell me now that 'blackboard' does have some awful historic meaning behind it )
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Post by paulmitchell on Nov 26, 2007 20:07:43 GMT
Well.... perhaps blackboard does have some awful history. Certainly the concept of being "in the black" or "in the red" is considered to have its roots within the slave trade, as does the term "nitty gritty". So, when do these terms cease being racist and simply become common terms? Does an awareness of their apparent meaning affect our own ability to use them, and should it affect other peoples ability to use them?
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Post by illgrace on Nov 26, 2007 21:48:04 GMT
++Does an awareness of their apparent meaning affect our own ability to use them, and should it affect other peoples ability to use them?++
I think an awareness of how something is 'received' should guide usage. For instance, when I was a little girl, terms like 'fireman', policeman', councilman', etc., etc., not only shaped little girls expectations about what they could aspire to, but became archaic when women started to take these jobs.
I also think that people have the ability to refine word usage when they feel they have enough power to do so. It was fine for some bigots up until the 1960's in the Southern States to talk about 'coons', 'shines' , 'niggers' etc, and to refer to a grown black man as 'boy'. I doubt they'd do that now ( at least, not to the person's face though I have no doubt crap like that lingers).
I don't think anyone could claim that they didn't KNOW calling someone from Pakistan ( actually, I've heard it used for anyone from the Indian sub-continent, whether they were from Pakistan or not (which is offensive enough) ) a '(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night)', or a black person a '(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night)' was racist is really a good excuse unless they are 2 yrs. old and have heard it around them all the time or have lived in a cave for most of their lives. How can one not know when the very people whom these nomens are applied to say " Please don't call me that".
That there are 'grey areas' is true. One of the reasons hate-groups and their speakers can get a foot in the door is they exploit these 'grey areas'. For instance, some U.K. folkists may talk about the 'Indigenous English'. So , if you say to them " for a moment I thought you were doing the 'white Anglo-Saxon only thing and not including the black and Jewish people and others that have been here for hundreds of years", then watch how they respond.
So , in the initial post about racist remarks and jokes, if one asks someone to explain , then that 'grey area' is no longer grey and the 'intent' is known.
Illgrace
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Post by Michael on Nov 27, 2007 0:18:22 GMT
I'd not use any of those terms personally. (Though I had used Gypped before, not realising the etymology of the term.) As an American of French Canadian (and Scots) heritage, I've actually been called a 'dumb frog' to my face. I let them know that I didn't approve of their rudeness. I do tend to think that we give language too much power though. Lenny Bruce had the right of it when he resisted censorship and was blatant about using so called 'scary words' in the attempt to want to dis-empower them so that they couldn't be used to hurt people. I'm more of the camp that the answer to idiotic so called hate speech isn't to drive it underground by making it illegal, but rather to shine the light of truth upon it with better thought out speech. Please keep in mind that I'm talking about speech here, not force...someone has every Right to be a moron and to call me a dumb frog if they want to, they do NOT have the Right to deny my Rights. I sit partially corrected ;D [HERE]So, lets try some other terms in common usage. (oh, I'm NOT saying you use these!, they are just better examples) " He gypped me out of my money" ...etc...
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Lee
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Post by Lee on Nov 27, 2007 0:43:32 GMT
I've been known to use them, without any intent towards malice at all; it's just something that's been ingrained in me since early childhood. I'd reckon that most people who use these terms are not aware of any "background" to them at all.
The WORST and most obviously racist one I've heard is "(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night) rigged".
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Post by silence on Nov 27, 2007 1:52:06 GMT
The WORST and most obviously racist one I've heard is "(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night) rigged". And I grew up hearing that one as 'jerry-rigged', due to, I always believed, my grandfather's and several uncle's experiences in the world wars. Silence
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Post by illgrace on Nov 27, 2007 2:10:25 GMT
++Please keep in mind that I'm talking about speech here, not force...someone has every Right to be a moron and to call me a dumb frog if they want to, they do NOT have the Right to deny my Rights.++
I will agree about censorship (which I am against) and the right for someone to say offensive things as long as it doesn't deprive one of one's rights.
The problem is, language has the power of cultural pre-conceptions behind it and does effect rights.
Read the first part of my post: re 'male' occupations. I well remember that as a child, there were jobs I could never aspire to because one had to be a man. Having thus narrowed the field, I chose jobs whose name did not imply and sexual differentiation, like 'doctor'. My sweet pre-school teacher, when asking the standard " what do you want to be when you grow up question" got 'doctor' from me. "Don't you mean 'nurse', dear?" she answered. One is tempted to say " but that was long ago". True, it was, but when people hear or see the word 'nurse', do they get a visual of a woman or a man in general? What is ironic is that at least a third of the nurses at the big hospital here are men.
O.K., so what? Well, one of the best lessons I ever learned from a prof. was NEVER indicate your sex on a job application or research paper. They did a study ( gotta dig it up) where they took a research article and copied it out. On one half of them ( remember, all the articles were the same) they put a man's name and on the other, a womans. ONLY the one's with men's names on got accepted for publication. So, is this depriving someone of their 'rights'?
Why are women still payed up to one-third less for the SAME job as men even though they are equally qualified? It's that power of cultural pre-conception thing I mentioned earlier: for centuries, women were considered intellectually inferior. Otherwise, what justification could there be? Is this not depriving someone of their 'rights'?
See, it all depends on which end of the deal one is on. I know ('cause I talk to them) that male nurses get very tired of the same old stereotype remarks and 'loss of respect' that happens when they tell people what they do. So it works both ways.
So, we have this historical preconception at work in language. If one doesn't want to censor anything ( because the best way to let someone show they are a fool is to let them open their mouth) then it is up to the culture itself to decide which areas of language need to be changed.
I mean, why don't newspapers and T.V. refer to black people as 'niggers' ? We don't believe in censorship, yeah? I suggest it's because of the historical baggage such terms carry. It's like the swastika. One can try a dozen different ways to 'rescue' this symbol and take it back to it's original meaning(s), but I doubt that will happen. Why? Again, we have a 'cultural consensus' that that symbol, or that word, or that phrase , have acquired such negative connotations and put a (and this is very important) VALUE on certain words and ideas that they should no longer be used as they are offensive. Certain words DO give emotive weight and value to a person which would not be applied if there was no prejudice. 'Justice' is shown as blind-folded for a reason. I can't think of a single stereotype word that is not derogatory. The simple act of demeaning someone has just eroded their rights, even if it's the right to feel 'equal' to others.
You may agree with Lenny Bruce about reclaiming 'taboo' words, but I'll bet you censor yourself or are in turn effected by words (frog, for instance) or it wouldn't even cause you a moment's pause.
Illgrace
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Post by illgrace on Nov 27, 2007 4:05:49 GMT
I've been known to use them, without any intent towards malice at all; it's just something that's been ingrained in me since early childhood. I'd reckon that most people who use these terms are not aware of any "background" to them at all. The WORST and most obviously racist one I've heard is "(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night) rigged". Oh, I agree that things can be said in ignorance. The worst for me ( and this will 'age' me) was when I was little there used to be these licorice candies called '(I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night) babies'. My mother heard me calling them that when I was about 4-5 and told me never to use that term and explained why ( I had never seen a black person - the 'racial' selection in my neck of the woods was Anglo, Chinese, Japanese , Indian sub-continent and First Nations people). I think the thing is once a person knows something is offensive - stop using it, whatever the 'excuse'. (though it wasn't until I was older I discovered it was all right to buy 'jujubes' -TRUE! I was so afraid of giving offense it never occurred to me to look the word up having been dinged on the other candy ) I was reading an interview with Shelby Foote ( who I think one of the greatest American writers - I've read 'The Civil War - a Narrative' 3 times ;D- yes, I'm that boring ) and he had this to say: ++Every now and then something happens that gives you pause, some act of cruelty of some sort brings you up short. But some of the things are so simple. I have to use ugly words here, but a slingshot, when I was a little boy, was called a (I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night)-shooter. That's just what you called it. I remember I came home from school one day, and Nellie, who worked for us for 30 years, a black woman who was a maid and cook -- Nellie was there, and I said, "Nellie, have you seen my (I am an ugly racist who cries myself to sleep every night)-shooter anywhere?" She said, "Yeah, I think it's back on your dresser there." The word didn't mean any more to her than it did to me, but it gave me pause there. I gave a little jump, "What did I say?" And I never said it again. And in my family I was taught never to use that word, but the slingshot thing was such a common name for a common thing, that there was no racial connection with it in my mind.++ Illgrace
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Lee
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Post by Lee on Nov 27, 2007 20:35:02 GMT
But some things, at least around here, have been absorbed in common language and lost their original meaning. They might have been offensive originally, but I for instance don't get offended when someone says "Indian giver". I don't think that the modern person today using that term is attempting to slight me or my ancestors, I really don't. They're just using a common phrase. And if they ARE trying to slight my ancestors, or myself, well my complete oblivion to the intended insult sort of strips their power right away.
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