rowan
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Posts: 41
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Post by rowan on Nov 21, 2007 14:41:24 GMT
Anyone see the programme last night? Much was made of the protesters being woden folk, and either T or S named the Long Man as 'Woden'. So now anyone who was watching and is even vaguely interested enough to google 'woden folk' will come across their website, see what they are, and assume that Druids are the same. I think the programme is being repeated, anyone know when?
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Post by Boojum on Nov 22, 2007 10:55:19 GMT
Thanks for this. I've actually been collating stuff on Woden's Folk and their allies, which I'll post when I get a bit of time.
Out of interest, does anyone have any contacts within Druidism that they could talk to about this?
I know very little about Druidism personally. But I see Arthur was there. He's a member of the Green Party and they've always been staunchly anti racist. So it might be worth chatting to the Druids about this.
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Post by illgrace on Nov 22, 2007 11:11:02 GMT
I think it would be an excellent idea to get some kind of 'dialogue' going about this. While researching another group, I not only found an terrible mixing of anti-racist druid-pagans with hard-line 'folkist' like 'Woden's Folk', but a general 'cloud of unknowing' *snerk* between the two. Both groups mix at festivals and such, but how many people know who is who. This is not to say one can't go to some gathering and enjoy themselves and just ignore the nutters, but people should be informed for the reason that 'folkist' often cloak their agendas in 'pagan speak' and so catch the unwary.
One of the worries for me is this: is this 'mixing' deliberate, or just a head-on crash between two groups with a 'basic' foundational interest ( Druidism)?
So yes, anyone who can speak to this, or find someone willing to do so would be greatly appreciated. I don't know much about the 'Druid' scene, but it's fairly large as pagan groups go so someone should be able to find out something.
Illgrace
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rowan
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Post by rowan on Nov 22, 2007 13:27:52 GMT
Out of interest, does anyone have any contacts within Druidism that they could talk to about this? I know very little about Druidism personally. But I see Arthur was there. He's a member of the Green Party and they've always been staunchly anti racist. So it might be worth chatting to the Druids about this. I have lots of druid contacts and have sent links for this board to most of them. Unfortunately not many have joined yet. I am a member of the message board of the druid group who were at the protest and they're not too happy about being connected to WF either, hopefully someone from there will join us. When you say 'Arthur was there', do you mean King Arthur at the Long Man protest? He wasn't actually present at the protest but reporters often quote him from telephone conversations they've had with him.
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Post by cursuswalker on Nov 22, 2007 23:16:12 GMT
I am one of the protestors at the Long Man and a druid. Please ask any questions you have about what happened on the day. suffice to say that part of my complaint to OFCOM about the broadcast will include the implication that everyone present was a part of the Woden's Folk. This was a disgraceful thing to imply, or even to just get wrong. The complete transcript of the broadcast can be found here: www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/64538/weblog/
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rowan
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Post by rowan on Nov 23, 2007 0:03:29 GMT
Hi Cursuswalker, great to see you here You said on the intro thread that there were only 2 of the woden folk there? They must be very pleased with themselves to have dragged you into their little group!
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Post by Boojum on Nov 23, 2007 1:32:49 GMT
Good to have you here Cursuswalker. I've actually just posted an article on Woden's Folk (in the groups and individuals section), which may be of interest. It possibly explains why they were so unpleasant, and there's a definite identification of whom at least one of them was.
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wake
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Post by wake on Nov 23, 2007 10:03:11 GMT
Hi there.
It's Greg Draven here.
I'm more than happy to field questions about the protest too, as long as there is no nastiness about the protest like there have been on certain other boards.
The Wodens Folk that were there acted totally unacceptably and the rest of the protestors tried to make it clear that we were not 'joining' in with their abuse of the crew and the girls.
I also find it really disgusting that the Wodens Folk were there protesting the argument but they themselves go on the Longman.
We saw them there at our last ritual up at the Longman. They had crossed the fence that is there to stop you going on the Longman.
I find that so Hypocritical and as such it seemed to me that they just wanted to have an argument with TnS rather than peacefully protest.
Wulf was up there and could be seen on the program shouting at the girls.
But there you go.
Peace.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 23, 2007 10:38:06 GMT
Welome to the board Greg. Just a couple of questions for either you or Cursuswalker. Are there any plans from within the Druid community to stop Woden's Folk from hijacking your activities in the future? (I can understand if you don't want to go into details at this point). This strikes me as somewhat similar to the problem with Stonehenge and the brew crew you've previously faced, if more similar. Out if interest, did you notice this individual in attendance? (I've cropped the picture heavily to take one of his kids out).
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wake
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Post by wake on Nov 23, 2007 10:42:22 GMT
Hey hey.
Well... I can't speak and have never spoken for the WHOLE on the druid community, but there is nothing we can do to stop people like that from turning up, they do at least have the right to turn up and protest.
I just didn't agree with the way they did it.
It is always the few that screw it up for the rest or as someone once said, In every bed of roses there is always at least one prick.
We did notice them there, but had no idea they were going to be so nasty about the way they conducted themselves.
I think most of us had never really been involved with the Wodens Folk before so didn't know what to expect.
Hengwah.
:-)
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Post by illgrace on Nov 23, 2007 11:24:28 GMT
Welcome to the board Wake and Cursuswalker! I'm glad to see some Druids here, as many of the less savory 'Folkists' gravitate towards that part of paganism , especially in the U.K. and Europe.Here in North America, the lines between the different 'Asatru' groups are much more well known.
And yes, it's not down to one group if another turns up to do their turn on the soap-box, the problem is the confusion this can create in people who are not informed re: who represents what in terms of Druidry which leads me to the next question.
I wonder if our Druid members could do me a favour? I'm terribly ignorant of Druid groups though I know there are quite a few different ones. For the young people who are thinking of joining a group but may lack enough information to discriminate between 'types, are there any kind of 'pointers' you could give? ( I mean in terms of not ending up with Woden's Folk type by mistake)
Experienced people in any area know what they are 'hearing', and sometimes assume others will too, but beginners and young people may not have a clue, as you know.
So, anything the 'beginner' or someone interested in this 'path' should watch for? Some of the 'Folkist' types are masters of double-speak and cover, but sooner or later, they will let something drop. What should people look for?
Thank you in advance.
Illgrace
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wake
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Post by wake on Nov 23, 2007 13:54:10 GMT
Hi Illgrace.
Do you know what.
I don't feel I can answer your queston to a satisfactory extent.
All I can give is my perspective.
I fell into Druidry and Obod. My wife and I went for a picnic and to watch some morris dancing at the Longman of Wilmington on Beltaine 2005. We didn't know there was going to be a druid ceromony. I just happened to be wearing my Museum of Witchcraft T-shirt so Damh assumed we were up there for the ritual. The circle formed through where we were picnicing so we joined in.
And here we are two and a half years later. :-)
So I can't say what not to look for because I didn't go looking for it.
What I can say is how I feel.
What I would do if I was searching for Druidry, is research the different groups. Initially it seems best to look at the big groups first. OBOD BDO AOD
The reason being is that they have a large member base so they must be doing something right.
It also depends on a persons personal need and circumstances.
I for example am not as big a reader as I wish I were, but some people are, So Grab some books from different groups and have a read. See if you see anything you like about one specific group and then look them up.
Some people like practising elements of Druidry by being solitary rather than in a group. I really admire people that do that as they learn themselves.
I think once you have looked into these large groups and you have dabled with the world for a while you then would have a better understanding of the fundamentals of Ritual and (for want of a better word) Core Beliefs, you are better equiped to venture deeper into the world (if you want to of course)
I think that the biggest problem is education.
If I were to say, "Christian". Peoples first reaction is not 'Ohhh, Ku Klux Clan.'
But if I say Pagan, so many people say 'Ohhh, Devil worship' which of course is not the case. To believe in the Christian Devil you have to believe in the Christian God, which I don't.
If people knew more about Paganism, and it was more a part of the every day cultural spheres we live in, then hopefully there would not be the stigma that there is today.
There are some bad groups out there though. And you can only avoid them by reading between the lines or by listening to points of view from other people you trust.
Ultimately I would not stop someone in joining a group like Wodens Folk, but if it were someone I knew and they asked my opinion, yet still joined, I'd be very disappointed.
I also dont know if I woudl put Odinsm and Druidry in the same category. But this is the kind of thing you learn whilst you are actually in the world of paganism or researching it.
I think many people share the umbrella of clasing themselves as PAGAN, but there are many many different ways to practice paganism, some more volatile and extreme than others.
I think I may have rambled...
I'm sorry. :-)
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Post by cursuwalker on Nov 23, 2007 21:55:55 GMT
Welome to the board Greg. Just a couple of questions for either you or Cursuswalker. Are there any plans from within the Druid community to stop Woden's Folk from hijacking your activities in the future? (I can understand if you don't want to go into details at this point). This strikes me as somewhat similar to the problem with Stonehenge and the brew crew you've previously faced, if more similar. Out if interest, did you notice this individual in attendance? (I've cropped the picture heavily to take one of his kids out). I can say, with confidence, that the individual you mentioned was NOT present. As for "hijacking" our activities, we had practically no time in which to organise our protest. We turned up with what we intended to do. Woden's Folk did as well. The two groups were entirely independant of the other. Unfortunately WF managed to make enough of an impression on the film-crew that ITV either thought we were a part of the same group or decided to say we were. Either way, their characterising us as being part of WF will form a part of my complaint to OFCOM.
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Post by Boojum on Nov 24, 2007 21:45:16 GMT
As for "hijacking" our activities, we had practically no time in which to organise our protest. We turned up with what we intended to do. Woden's Folk did as well. The two groups were entirely independant of the other. Unfortunately WF managed to make enough of an impression on the film-crew that ITV either thought we were a part of the same group or decided to say we were. Either way, their characterising us as being part of WF will form a part of my complaint to OFCOM. I have a strong suspicion that the fact that the protest was presented by the media as a WF protest will have been WF's plan all along. Don't underestimate Southgate. He isn't your average fascist. The guy's an extremely experienced 'political soldier' and highly intelligent. That's one of the main reasons he's so politically dangerous. In some ways, you're lucky the penny doesn't seem to have dropped for the media yet- Southgate's political history is a matter of public record. Obviously, if it looks like a protest is organised or even just supported by fascists, any chance of public support for the cause is out of the window. I'd be careful. It does look like WF may be gearing up to try and recruit from the druid mileu and that would certainly fit with Southgate's past activities. Be very wary of any new people offering to take on organisational roles within Druid organisations. I've seen that happen before. Because people like Southgate are very organisationally adept, they end up being giving roles of responsibility without people realising they have a different agenda. (Be particuarly suspicious of anyone looking for positions where they have access to membership lists- that's a standard target in the kind of cases I'm talking about. It gives you full contact details for a later recruitment attempt).
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Post by cursuwalker on Nov 25, 2007 20:18:52 GMT
As for "hijacking" our activities, we had practically no time in which to organise our protest. We turned up with what we intended to do. Woden's Folk did as well. The two groups were entirely independant of the other. Unfortunately WF managed to make enough of an impression on the film-crew that ITV either thought we were a part of the same group or decided to say we were. Either way, their characterising us as being part of WF will form a part of my complaint to OFCOM. I have a strong suspicion that the fact that the protest was presented by the media as a WF protest will have been WF's plan all along. Don't underestimate Southgate. He isn't your average fascist. The guy's an extremely experienced 'political soldier' and highly intelligent. That's one of the main reasons he's so politically dangerous. In some ways, you're lucky the penny doesn't seem to have dropped for the media yet- Southgate's political history is a matter of public record. Obviously, if it looks like a protest is organised or even just supported by fascists, any chance of public support for the cause is out of the window. I'd be careful. It does look like WF may be gearing up to try and recruit from the druid mileu and that would certainly fit with Southgate's past activities. Be very wary of any new people offering to take on organisational roles within Druid organisations. I've seen that happen before. Because people like Southgate are very organisationally adept, they end up being giving roles of responsibility without people realising they have a different agenda. (Be particuarly suspicious of anyone looking for positions where they have access to membership lists- that's a standard target in the kind of cases I'm talking about. It gives you full contact details for a later recruitment attempt). All noted, though I can't think of any druids I know who would be recruitable.
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